DoG's Top 100 Test Bowlers Countdown Thread 100-1

[Migara]

Get fair dinkum mate. Australia wanted him to bowl from both ends.

May be at the nets.

 

[Migara]

1 McGrath
2 Marshall
3 Murali
4 Hadlee
5 Steyn
6 Ambrose
7 Imran
8 Barnes
9 Warne
10 Waqar
11 Donald
12 O'Riely
13 Trueman
14 Lillie
15 Grimmet

 

[ankitj]

I think there is a chance that Grimmett gets ranked higher than O'Reilly just like in Wisden ratings. So I'll say O'Reilly might be next.

O'Reilly, Donald, Trueman, Grimmett (and possibly Lillee) should show up soon. All others have either great peaks or great longevity which should see them ranked higher.

 

[trundler]

O'Reilly, Donald, Trueman, Grimmett (and possibly Lillee) should show up soon. All others have either great peaks or great longevity which should see them ranked higher.

And if your name starts with M, you have all 3.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Saqlain was better for 2 years. That's about it.

Close to 300 wickets at less than 22 in 2 years. Not bad.

 

[Burgey]

Saqlain better than both

Saqlain was an odi beast wasn’t he?

 

[NUFAN]

I know I rated Warne 6th but he is the only one left averaging above 25 isnt he?

 

[stephen]

I know I rated Warne 6th but he is the only one left averaging above 25 isnt he?

Yeah I think so. I get the feeling that he'll end up lower down than most people rate him because of this.

That's ok, like Botham the stats don't tell the true story.

 

[marc71178]

Close to 300 wickets at less than 22 in 2 years. Not bad.

Key number when talking about a career there is the 2.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Key number when talking about a career there is the 2.

It wasn't actually over 2 years, PFK was being flippant

 

[ankitj]

I know I rated Warne 6th but he is the only one left averaging above 25 isnt he?

He will do well on non home record, quality opposition (except India) and longevity. Back him to be in top 7 or so, can even be top 3.

 

[h_hurricane]

The batting quality of the tail is not as important as the batting quality of the top 6 when you're up against an ATG attack.

Against sustained bowling pressure even good tail enders aren't going to add much. And if Imran is being picked as a bowler, his batting isn't going to be as great as his stats suggest anyway. Better off picking the one guy who has a proven track record of dismissing some of the best batsmen in history instead.

You might disagree and that's fine but for my money, Hadlee, Marshall, Warne, McGrath is a better attack than Imran, Hadlee, Marshall, Warne and doesn't lose much at all in the bowling stakes.

With Ambrose and Murali in the second XI attack a case for Imran is much stronger.

Mcgrath is certainly a better bowler than Imran, but Imran on an average scores 35-40 runs more than him per test match. This gives him more head start over anything better which Mcgrath brings to the table with the ball. I also feel that in a team of 3-4 ATG bowlers, replacing one ATG bowler with a slightly inferior ATG bowler only reduces overall quality ever so slightly as the bowling workload is only around 25%. Also, if Gilchrist or Sobers get set and are in the mood, Imran and Hadlee will support them better in getting a bigger score.

 

[stephen]

Mcgrath is certainly a better bowler than Imran, but Imran on an average scores 35-40 runs more than him per test match. This gives him more head start over anything better which Mcgrath brings to the table with the ball. I also feel that in a team of 3-4 ATG bowlers, replacing one ATG bowler with a slightly inferior ATG bowler only reduces overall quality ever so slightly as the bowling workload is only around 25%. Also, if Gilchrist or Sobers get set and are in the mood, Imran and Hadlee will support them better in getting a bigger score.

One bowler is 20-25% off the bowling workload but only 5-9% off the batting workload.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Mcgrath is certainly a better bowler than Imran, but Imran on an average scores 35-40 runs more than him per test match. This gives him more head start over anything better which Mcgrath brings to the table with the ball. I also feel that in a team of 3-4 ATG bowlers, replacing one ATG bowler with a slightly inferior ATG bowler only reduces overall quality ever so slightly as the bowling workload is only around 25%. Also, if Gilchrist or Sobers get set and are in the mood, Imran and Hadlee will support them better in getting a bigger score.

We've literally had this exact same discussion on here dozens of times, and it's not as simple an answer. Even a slight superiority in bowling can be more valuable despite a large inferiority in batting, practically speaking. The slightly better bowler could make a huge difference in getting an extra wicket that could potentially save far more runs than you're giving up. It definitely depends on the rest of your team but I'd pick the superior bowler every day if he's going to bat 10 or 11 anyway. If picking McGrath over Imran (weird 2 to be choosing from btw) means that you'd have genuine tail enders from 8-11 then picking Imran would be the better choice. I don't see why that would be the case though because if you're going to have one bowler in your team who can't bat then it would be McGrath, or possibly Murali.

 

[Bolo]

The batting quality of the tail is not as important as the batting quality of the top 6 when you're up against an ATG attack.

Against sustained bowling pressure even good tail enders aren't going to add much. And if Imran is being picked as a bowler, his batting isn't going to be as great as his stats suggest anyway. Better off picking the one guy who has a proven track record of dismissing some of the best batsmen in history instead.

You might disagree and that's fine but for my money, Hadlee, Marshall, Warne, McGrath is a better attack than Imran, Hadlee, Marshall, Warne and doesn't lose much at all in the bowling stakes.

With Ambrose and Murali in the second XI attack a case for Imran is muchstronger.

.

Imran wasn't a tailender other than at the start of his career. He batted 6, played a few games as a specialist bat when he was shot from bowling.

There's no need to speculate on how Imran would go against a line up of ATGs. He one of the only players to have faced one-while wi had serval 4 man attacks they never played more than a handful of games together so hardly anyone has faced one. This is not the strongest quartet on paper, but all stronger ones had players not yet at their peak or past it. Looking at the individuals and their ability at that stage in their career, it's probably the strongest group of bowlers ever fielded, with only walsh a weaker link. Ambrose and Marshall are included in your teams, and while bishop was not, he was the best bowler in the quartet

1st Test, West Indies tour of Pakistan at Karachi, Nov 15-20 1990 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo
2nd Test, West Indies tour of Pakistan at Faisalabad, Nov 23-25 1990 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

3rd Test, West Indies tour of Pakistan at Lahore, Dec 6-11 1990 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

He also faced an attack that included Benjamin instead of bishop, so was not atg quality, but was statistically the best quartet, and had a 167 ball blockout.

He managed a hundred against an attack that included 3 ATGs the previous seriesn


These are some of the highest quality attacks ever fielded, and he had good innings against 2 man atgs as well. If you picked an ATG bat and he had half this impact you would be happy. This while performing better with the ball than the bat.

I've always rated him close to GOAT. But I've never been sure if I could find a spot for him in my xi over balance issues. I now have

 

[smash84]

As I said earlier, it would have been a simple choice to pick McGrath if their batting would have been close, but it isn't. McGrath's batting was really poor. Running out of partners argument assumes that imran is working with 9, 10, and 11. But doesn't think about his partnership with number 5,6, and 7. The expected number of runs far exceed the very marginal reduction in bowling quality.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Didn’t Imran bat at 7? He was a good home bowler, and decent shout for a side with need of a swing bowler as opposed to a seam bowler. In a side already boasting one of Hadlee or Ambrose Is be more inclined to take Imran.

 

[h_hurricane]

One bowler is 20-25% off the bowling workload but only 5-9% off the batting workload.

On a bowling scale of 25, I would give 24 to Mcgrath assuming Marshall gets 25. Imran would get 23, or to be really harsh to him 22. On a batting scale of 9, assuming Bradman gets 9, Imran gets 3.5 whereas Mcgrath gets 0.5. Imran wins here, if you add these numbers straight. Anyways, I do not have any problem in having Mcgrath in a world eleven. To each his own

 

[TheJediBrah]

The expected number of runs far exceed the very marginal reduction in bowling quality.

No it doesn't. It's not that simple. We've been over this.

On a bowling scale of 25, I would give 24 to Mcgrath assuming Marshall gets 25. Imran would get 23, or to be really harsh to him 22. On a batting scale of 9, assuming Bradman gets 9, Imran gets 3.5 whereas Mcgrath gets 0.5. Imran wins here, if you add these numbers straight. Anyways, I do not have any problem in having Mcgrath in a world eleven. To each his own

cricket doesn't work by just "adding the numbers straight". Pick an extreme scenario: A slightly better bowler could take an early wicket of a batsman that would go on to make 150. That's 150 runs saved right there from 1 wicket. Even though the better bowler may only average 1 run better. Funny how that 1 run average can add up to so much more.

I still don't get why we're choosing between Imran and McGrath anyway. Your numbers 10 & 11 should not be doing too much batting, historical statistics show this. Unless you're refusing to pick a tailender who averages below 20 then McGrath is a shoe in.

IMO you pick your best bowlers, at least 3 of them. When picking your number 8 batting should come into it more.

 

[Bolo]

As I said earlier, it would have been a simple choice to pick McGrath if their batting would have been close, but it isn't. McGrath's batting was really poor. Running out of partners argument assumes that imran is working with 9, 10, and 11. But doesn't think about his partnership with number 5,6, and 7. The expected number of runs far exceed the very marginal reduction in bowling quality.

I use this argument with others, but it's difficult with him. You aren't losing a little, you are winning or losing a lot. I don't think having him shred the opposition in helpful conditions helps that.much. the other bowlers can do it too.

I was also discounting his runs a bit based on not outs. That WI series sounds good when you hear 50 run average, only bowling for one game.30rpi bowling once sounds very mediocre. But looking at how they got shredded in he second game changes things. That score of his is worth 150. And the third needs to be not out to save he game