DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen - The Top 25

[honestbharani]

I'll reply to what I want to reply to. If you don't like it, don't read. Just as I ignore half your bull**** posts on here.

Having said that, I'm more interested in the next batsman coming up. Hurry up DoG.

Nah.. u guys are dng Warne Vs Murali in proxy here basically.. It would be better if you guys took this argument there and leave this floor to DoG This is not even a top 100 bowlers' thread, FFS..

 

[chasingthedon]

I didn't know that number, although I suppose with an educated guess I'd have got within 10k of it, but it really does put that innings in context - phenomenal performance, although I don't think its in the top 25 in Patrick Ferriday's new book

Spoiler alert

 

[Days of Grace]

For me yes, but I also belive Hutton may have been better than Hobbs as well. Sutcliiffe for me just scored too damm slowly, a s/r in the hight 30's just doesn't cut it for me. Added to the fact that was a cear number two to Hobbs in the partnership and those who saw them play unanimously choose Hobbs as Sutcliffe superior while Hutton faced superior attacks and faced greater challenges. Pretty clear cut for me.

Additioanlly if we are picking by partnerships then why not pick Garner to open with Marshall, best opening new ball pair ever and Garner's stats on face value are comparable or better than those in competition for the slot opposite Maco's and they also complement each other well.

The way I se it pick the best players period.

Since you are so obsessed with strike-rates, here are the strike-rates for innings of 50+ for the top 25 batsmen.

Hutton and Sutcliffe were in the same ballpark.

But I agree with you that Hutton faced much better bowling attacks and that, together with his great innings', is primarily why he is ahead of Sutcliffe in this analysis.

IVA Richards 68.00
BC Lara 66.28
RG Pollock 63.00
RT Ponting 62.04
DG Bradman 62.00
ED Weekes 62.00
Inzamam-ul-Haq 57.73
KC Sangakkara 56.68
SR Tendulkar 56.38
GS Chappell 55.00
RN Harvey 55.00
GS Sobers 54.00
JB Hobbs 53.00
Javed Miandad 52.00
SR Waugh 51.79
WR Hammond 51.00
JH Kallis 49.69
GA Headley 47.00
SM Gavaskar 47.00
R Dravid 46.76
S Chanderpaul 46.29
AR Border 44.03
L Hutton 43.00
KF Barrington 42.00
H Sutcliffe 40.00


Some of the numbers have been rounded off because the data wasn't fully available and I had to take an educated guess at the balls faced. Charles Davis helped me a lot in this regard.


Also, have you seen scorecards for the 1928/29 Ashes? Some of Hammond's centuries were scored at a strike-rate of under 30. Fair dibs, there were timeless tests IIRC, but still.

 

[benchmark00]

Chee-Quee yet to pop up #darkhorse

 

[L Trumper]

Only joined recently and I just read the whole thread through, all 41 pages. What a thoroughly thought-provoking analysis... fascinating and edumacating in equal measure - rare combo! Just want to say thanks for the mindbending amount of work you must have put into this, DoG.

Eagerly anticipating the bowlers' version, although I may have to go away and wait for that thread to reach 50 pages so I can have another binge-in-one-sitting read. Installments would probably kill me.

Hobbs next??

Same with me. I joined this forum 3 1/2 years ago, when Sean was doing 50 greatest players, and binge-read all 50 threads. It is all down hill from there, till this thread.

 

[kyear2]

Since you are so obsessed with strike-rates, here are the strike-rates for innings of 50+ for the top 25 batsmen.

Hutton and Sutcliffe were in the same ballpark.

But I agree with you that Hutton faced much better bowling attacks and that, together with his great innings', is primarily why he is ahead of Sutcliffe in this analysis.

IVA Richards 68.00
BC Lara 66.28
RG Pollock 63.00
RT Ponting 62.04
DG Bradman 62.00
ED Weekes 62.00
Inzamam-ul-Haq 57.73
KC Sangakkara 56.68
SR Tendulkar 56.38
GS Chappell 55.00
RN Harvey 55.00
GS Sobers 54.00
JB Hobbs 53.00
Javed Miandad 52.00
SR Waugh 51.79
WR Hammond 51.00
JH Kallis 49.69
GA Headley 47.00
SM Gavaskar 47.00
R Dravid 46.76
S Chanderpaul 46.29
AR Border 44.03
L Hutton 43.00
KF Barrington 42.00
H Sutcliffe 40.00


Some of the numbers have been rounded off because the data wasn't fully available and I had to take an educated guess at the balls faced. Charles Davis helped me a lot in this regard.


Also, have you seen scorecards for the 1928/29 Ashes? Some of Hammond's centuries were scored at a strike-rate of under 30. Fair dibs, there were timeless tests IIRC, but still.

Was aware of Hammond's scoring rate which is again one of the reasons Indon't rate him as highly as some others. Though Hobbs and Sobers numbers would have been higher and though Chappell's was lower as well, so pleasant surprise from him. What really was surprising was Headley, that number was much lower than expected.

Someone I will be taking an additional look at is Sir Everton, Bradman had stated that he was the best W.I batsman he had seen and he saw Sobers, Headley and Richards.

 

[Coronis]

Clearly, strike rate is not always important for a batsman.

 

[kyear2]

Clearly, strike rate is not always important for a batsman.

For me it really is. Separates the good from the truly great and dominant.

 

[Coronis]

For me it really is. Separates the good from the truly great and dominant.

So, Hutton would not be truly great?

 

[bagapath]

All great batters score at a run rate bet 2.5 to 3.5. Those outside of it - Viv Richards, Sehwag, Gilchrist at one end and Sutcliffe, Hutton, Boycott at the lower side - are mere exceptions to this rule. The most celebrated of them score between 3 and 3.5 runs/ over. Ideal test match batting means you plan to score between 260 and 320 on a day of batting depending on the bowling you are facing. Only when you are in a strong position can you afford to up the run rate and give yourself a chance to bowl out your opposition. Since your opposition is likely to have good bowlers and batters who can capitalise on your mistakes you play for time as often as you play for scoring loads of runs.

It is not a coincidence that these three slow coaches happen to be opening batsmen from Yorkshire. Their technique was especially honed on stickies and as the bedrocks of a traditional team everyone was watching with extra attention, no wonder they prioritised caution over flamboyance. The three hard hitters mentioned here, OTOH, played for successful teams that also had other star batters to step up in case their stroke play let them down on certain days. There was always a Haynes, a Dravid or a Waugh to steady the ship and grant Richards and Sehwag and Gilchrist the kind of freedom they needed to express themselves with unbridled aggression.

 

[Flem274*]

Headley just keeps on going.

 

[marc71178]

For me it really is. Separates the good from the truly great and dominant.

So you'll now be downgrading your assessment of Headley then seeing as he's slower than Kallis and on a par with Dravid....

 

[Viscount Tom]

If he comes above Hobbs I think'll cry.

 

[Rory90]

Excellent thread DoG - enjoyed it from the start. What a wonderful formula you have settled on.

My two cents the top 5:

5. Headley
4. Sobers
3. Lara
2. Hobbs
1. Bradman

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Graeme Pollock and Headley's Test careers are incredibly similar stats-wise. The big difference being the length of Headley's career. From Fred's article, it suggests that Headley's career went too long and Pollock's Test career was clearly too short.

Anyway, it's an interesting result if the gap between them is statistically significant, but would would be great (given the similarity of their careers) is if we could have a comparative breakdown of their ratings - once Headley has been pulled out of the hat, of course.

 

[Coronis]

If you take out Headley's innings after the war, he would've averaged 69, I believe.

 

[Days of Grace]

5. Brian Lara (West Indies) (1990-2006)

Career Length (Days): 5835
Percentage of team's matches played: 83%
Career Average: 52.88
Adjusted career average: 53.12
Adjusted away average: 48.78
Adjusted top-opposition average: 54.40
Top Tier centuries: 12 (rank 2nd)
Second tier centuries: 5
Third tier centuries: 14
Significant innings: 38
Significant innings per match: 0.29

Great innings: 11 (rank 1st)
3rd Test: Australia v West Indies at Sydney, Jan 2-6, 1993 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 13.63
5th Test: West Indies v England at St John's, Apr 16-21, 1994 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 14.79
2nd Test: West Indies v Australia at Kingston, Mar 13-16, 1999 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 19.58
3rd Test: West Indies v Australia at Bridgetown, Mar 26-30, 1999 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 25.49
3rd Test: Australia v West Indies at Adelaide, Dec 15-19, 2000 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 13.97
3rd Test: Sri Lanka v West Indies at Colombo (SSC), Nov 29-Dec 3, 2001 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 14.28
1st Test: South Africa v West Indies at Johannesburg, Dec 12-16, 2003 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 12.83
4th Test: West Indies v England at St John's, Apr 10-14, 2004 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 15.57
2nd Test: West Indies v South Africa at Port of Spain, Apr 8-12, 2005 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 13.57
3rd Test: West Indies v South Africa at Bridgetown, Apr 21-24, 2005 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 15.12
3rd Test: Australia v West Indies at Adelaide, Nov 25-29, 2005 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 17.85


Innings worth average: 4.08 (rank 4)

25 Test peak adjusted average: 66.55 (2001-2004)
50 Test peak adjusted average: 60.39 (2000-2005)


Quality Points: 639
Career Points: 150 (max points allowed, 173 actual points)
Peak Points: 137
TOTAL POINTS: 927


Brian Charles Lara has played more great innings than any other test batsman in the history of the game. And what makes this stat so impressive is that he played most of those innings with minimal support from teammates. Only two of his great innings resulted in West Indies victories. Those two were in his seminal series against Australia in 1999, perhaps the greatest series of batting that test cricket has ever known. How much more would his innings be worth if West Indies were a stronger team? It is hard to judge. Putting that aside, Lara was often accused of inconsistently, of not turning up. But when he did, he scored mountains of runs, often against top-class bowling attacks. I feel that no.5 is a good place for a batsman that often touched genius but also slightly underachieved and could not drag his team to more wins.

 

[smash84]

unfair on Lara to be blamed for the ineptitude of the WI side

But Brian Charles Lara, WAFG. I feel privileged to have watched his greatest innings live

 

[kyear2]

5. Brian Lara (West Indies) (1990-2006)

Career Length (Days): 5835
Percentage of team's matches played: 83%
Career Average: 52.88
Adjusted career average: 53.12
Adjusted away average: 48.78
Adjusted top-opposition average: 54.40
Top Tier centuries: 12
Second tier centuries: 5
Third tier centuries: 14
Significant innings: 38
Significant innings per match: 0.29

Great innings: 11
3rd Test: Australia v West Indies at Sydney, Jan 2-6, 1993 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 13.63
5th Test: West Indies v England at St John's, Apr 16-21, 1994 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 14.79
2nd Test: West Indies v Australia at Kingston, Mar 13-16, 1999 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 19.58
3rd Test: West Indies v Australia at Bridgetown, Mar 26-30, 1999 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 25.49
3rd Test: Australia v West Indies at Adelaide, Dec 15-19, 2000 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 13.97
3rd Test: Sri Lanka v West Indies at Colombo (SSC), Nov 29-Dec 3, 2001 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 14.28
1st Test: South Africa v West Indies at Johannesburg, Dec 12-16, 2003 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 12.83
4th Test: West Indies v England at St John's, Apr 10-14, 2004 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 15.57
2nd Test: West Indies v South Africa at Port of Spain, Apr 8-12, 2005 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 13.57
3rd Test: West Indies v South Africa at Bridgetown, Apr 21-24, 2005 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 15.12
3rd Test: Australia v West Indies at Adelaide, Nov 25-29, 2005 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 17.85


Innings worth average: 4.08

25 Test peak adjusted average: 66.55 (2001-2004)
50 Test peak adjusted average: 60.39 (2000-2005)


Quality Points: 639
Career Points: 150 (max points allowed, 173 actual points)
Peak Points: 137
TOTAL POINTS: 927


Brian Charles Lara has played more great innings than any other test batsman in the history of the game. And what makes this stat so impressive is that he played most of those innings with minimal support from teammates. Only two of his great innings resulted in West Indies victories. Those two were in his seminal series against Australia in 1999, perhaps the greatest series of batting that test cricket has ever known. How much more would his innings be worth if West Indies were a stronger team? It is hard to judge. Putting that aside, Lara was often accused of inconsistently, of not turning up. But when he did, he scored mountains of runs, often against top-class bowling attacks. I feel that no.5 is a good place for a batsman that often touched genius but also slightly underachieved and could not drag his team to more wins.

Notg only did the creative genius have that great series againts Australia, but that was a team that had two of the greatest bolwers of all time and one of the greatest attacks period in the history of the game. In fact his two greatest series came againts the three greatest bolwers of his era and undoubtably the two greatest spinners of All Time.

He was touched by genius, but if any member for the top ten of this list underachieved it was BCL, such was his potential and ability, and I couln't have said it better.

Top work DoG, keep them coming.

 

[NUFAN]

Well done Lara, the highest rated batsman from the last few decades is a terrific achievement for the Prince. Love how many great innings he produced.