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DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen: Discussion thread

TheJediBrah

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Having done this sort of thing before, I will say that RPI is one of those measures that people don't like but tends to create rankings that conform to their instincts more. I think it's either something that we subconsciously value, or something that correlates with something we subconsciously value, even when we consciously attempt to reject it.
This is what I've been assuming the case is. Bit of speculation but seems to me (using the exact example he put forward himself) that DoG has decided that Viv Richards is a better batsman than Chanderpaul and is trying to find a measure to add in to reflect that, even though it is a terrible measure that makes the rankings less viable in the end.
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
Because they are contributing more to their team.

Take for example Shaun Pollock and Chris Cairns in test batting. Very similar averages but Cairns contributed more runs to his team than Pollock ever did for his.

As for Richards and Chanderpaul, they both averaged in the low 70s in their respective peaks, but Richards scored a lot more runs and contributed more to his team whilst Chanders stat padded with all his not outs.
 

ataraxia

International Coach
Because they are contributing more to their team.

Take for example Shaun Pollock and Chris Cairns in test batting. Very similar averages but Cairns contributed more runs to his team than Pollock ever did for his.

As for Richards and Chanderpaul, they both averaged in the low 70s in their respective peaks, but Richards scored a lot more runs and contributed more to his team whilst Chanders stat padded with all his not outs.
So in effect you're rewarding not just top-order batsman but people who were in a good team or had a bad captain (better players to fulfill higher/dangerous positions/not going out to the middle sooner)? I think that's a good reward for opening batsmen but the other parts of it convince me that it would be better to just do x1.1 for openers or something. This measure also rewards batsmen with a high strike rate so IMO the strike rate measure is unneeded if we have this. (Pedantry here but Pollock contributed more runs to his test team than Cairns. I get your point though).
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Steve Waugh does not approve of using RPI. The start hurts red ink hunting NSWelshman disproportionately.
 

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Steve Waugh does not approve of using RPI. The start hurts red ink hunting NSWelshman disproportionately.
He also batted 5 and came in at 3/400 plenty of times so therefore his RPI would be already hurt out the gate since teams don't declare on 800
 

OverratedSanity

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Fine with RPi. Its usd in conjunction with average so its fine to reward players who bat higher.

Still reckon you should scrap strike rate entirely though. Atleast RPI is actual positive contribution. SR is an entirely worthless metric for batsmen.
 

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Fine with RPi. Its usd in conjunction with average so its fine to reward players who bat higher.

Still reckon you should scrap strike rate entirely though. Atleast RPI is actual positive contribution. SR is an entirely worthless metric for batsmen.
What about SR in the 1st/2nd innings? It's only truly worthless in a 3rd or 4th innings when trying to bat for a draw

1st innings runs scored quickly are obviously beneficial
 

OverratedSanity

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What about SR in the 1st/2nd innings? It's only truly worthless in a 3rd or 4th innings when trying to bat for a draw

1st innings runs scored quickly are obviously beneficial
It depends entirely on the situation and type of innings, really. You could rightly argue 50(180) from an opener or number 3 on day 1 on a spicy deck is helping the team more than a 50(35) where he doesn't even see off the new ball properly. Declaration situation or chasing a score with time running out, obviously its exactly the opposite.

Batting time simply should not be punished. It has been an asset from the first time tests were played to today.
 
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TheJediBrah

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Fine with RPi. Its usd in conjunction with average so its fine to reward players who bat higher.
Even if you really want to reward players who bat higher (which I think is just really dumb) then you'd be better off just literally doing that and add a metric to give more points to players who bat higher.

Doing it through rpi is just an incredibly inexact method that only achieves that through a side effect of it's main effect which is completely messing with what's supposed to be the whole point of the exercise, ie. judging batsmen by how good they are
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
You want to deduct points from someone like Sobers who batted lower?
I'm actually not totally opposed to this. Is his average of 57-58 batting all over really worth as much as an average of 57-58 batting predominantly top four? I'm not so sure. Obviously he's still better than the vast vast majority of challengers but that doesn't mean a tiny comparative nerf wouldn't be appropriate.

I fundamentally reject RPI as an interesting measure but I'm less cold on batting position not being worth consideration. I think for most batsmen it's easier to get a higher average batting lower (and not because of not outs).
 

vcs

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It depends entirely on the situation and type of innings, really. You could rightly argue 50(180) from an opener or number 3 on day 1 on a spicy deck is helping the team more than a 50(35) where he doesn't even see off the new ball properly. Declaration situation or chasing a score with time running out, obviously its exactly the opposite.

Batting time simply should not be punished. It has been an asset from the first time tests were played to today.
Depends, yes. But I reckon in the vast majority of cases, fast runs > slow runs.
 

OverratedSanity

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The vast majority of innings are less than 70-80 and you'd want those kinds of innings to consume more deliveries.
 

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