Does Barry Richards deserve an exemption to be ranked among the greats of the game?

[peterhrt]

Like a lot of cricketers then, they had to think about their careers outside cricket. Think he was one of them along with Irvine and even P Pollock that seemed to retire a tad early when you consider a lot of the guys we spoke about above retired late 30s and into their 40s. Rice was 45 at Natal I think.

Vince was actually chosen for the cancelled 1971/72 tour of Australia like Clive Rice

How good would they have become? The great question.

Barry Richards
Eddie Barlow (withdrew and replaced by Short but if things were normal I'm sure he wouldn't have had to worry about work)
Ali Bacher
Graeme Pollock
Lee Irvine
Dassie Biggs
Dennis Lindsay
Mike Procter
Peter Pollock
Pat Trimborn
Grahame Chevalier

(The newbees on the block along with Biggs who came in for Tiger Lance)
Arthur Short
Hylton Ackerman (World XI squad when the tour was cancelled)
Clive Rice
Peter de Vaal
Vince van der Bijl

It's something I'm trying to put together now in the SA Domestic History thread and using rebel series on order of potential new caps. There was more limelight on the 80s games but in the 70s lots of guys who didn't play in the 80s would have got caps like those above in reserve, Andre Bruyns, would they have gone to Lee Irvine to keep or Gavin Pfuhl/Tich Smith, Lorrie Wilmot, Donald Mackay-Coghill, Douglas Neilson, Pelham Henwood which Rhodesians (Duncan Fletcher, Brian Davison, Richie Kaschula, Paddy Clift etc)

Others to appear in the representative matches of 1973 and 1976 (against Derrick Robins' XI and International Wanderers) were:

1973: du Preez, Swart and Hanley
1976: Graham Francois, Howard Bergins and Ismail Ebrahim. For the season of 1975-76 only, Francois played under the name of Farouk Timol.

Tich Smith kept wicket in the first two matches of 1973, with Irvine taking over the gloves in the third. Irvine had played the previous two games as a batsman.

Procter reckoned Smith was as good a keeper as Ray Jennings.

 

[shortpitched713]

Who’s to say Barry wouldn’t have turned out more like Glenn Turner?

For their respective county sides:

Richards 204 matches 342 innings 15607 @ 50.50 38 tons 91 fifties Hampshire (68-78)
Turner 284 matches 493 innings 22298 @ 52.09 72 tons 93 fifties Worcestershire (67-82)

Truth is, we don't know.

There are countless examples like this too.

 

[Coronis]

Truth is, we don't know.

There are countless examples like this too.

For all I know I should start putting Glenn Turner in my ATG test XI

 

[mr_mister]

Richards outperformed Cook comfortably in South Africa, where conditions generally favoured bowlers, averaging 58 in first-class matches to Cook's 43. Peter Kirsten averaged 42.

Three seasons with Somerset boosted Cook's numbers. His average of 72 in England is second only to Bradman. These three years saw high scoring in England generally. Gooch averaged 70, Gatting 61, Hick 57 and Haynes 54.

Rice was also rated higher in England than in his native country. During the early 1980s Wisden said he was the world's leading all-rounder, ahead of all his four famous contemporaries.

These kind of comparisons always make me this "so if he averaged 58 in friendly bowling conditions of SA and his career average was 54... did he fail in friendly batting conditions in other countries?"

 

[peterhrt]

These kind of comparisons always make me this "so if he averaged 58 in friendly bowling conditions of SA and his career average was 54... did he fail in friendly batting conditions in other countries?"

In South Africa: 10603 runs @ 58.58. 34 hundreds.
In England: 16239 @ 50.27. 40 hundreds.
In Australia: 1494 @ 106.71. 6 hundreds.

First-Class Total: 28336 @ 54.70. 80 hundreds.

WSC "Tests" in Australia: 554 @ 79.14. 2 hundreds.

 

[mr_mister]

Using whatever years they played FC as being available for theoretical test selection, what's the best side you could have got during the isolation period?

That 71/72 tour squad posted earlier lacked Cook, Kirsten and Garth Le Roux, but push forward a few years and you lose Peter Pollock and Trevor Goddard (though I see he's not in the squad, had he organically retired before the isolation began?)

 

[mr_mister]

In South Africa: 10603 runs @ 58.58. 34 hundreds.
In England: 16239 @ 50.27. 40 hundreds.
In Australia: 1494 @ 106.71. 6 hundreds.

First-Class Total: 28336 @ 54.70. 80 hundreds.

WSC "Tests" in Australia: 554 @ 79.14. 2 hundreds.

I see. So it was just great(rather than exceptional in SA and Bradmanesque in Aus) results in England over a long period of time that pushed his averaged back to "only" 54

 

[number11]

No. Unfortunately BR played only 4 tests. It's unfortunate and he showcased his skills in FC cricket well but it is unfair to extrapolate with such a small sample size.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Using whatever years they played FC as being available for theoretical test selection, what's the best side you could have got during the isolation period?

That 71/72 tour squad posted earlier lacked Cook, Kirsten and Garth Le Roux, but push forward a few years and you lose Peter Pollock and Trevor Goddard (though I see he's not in the squad, had he organically retired before the isolation began?)

I am not sure they all played FC cricket exactly in the same time, but I believe around 1974/75 most were available:

Eddie Barlow
Barry Richards
Peter Kirsten
Graeme Pollock
Lee Irvine (wk)
Tony Greig
Clive Rice (c)
Mike Procter
Alan Kourie
Vincent Van Der Bijli
Garth Le Roux

Squad:
Jimmy Cook
Allan Lamb
Denis Lindsay
Rupart Hanley
Denis Hobson

Goddard retired in 70 from FC as well, and Peter in 72.

 

[peterhrt]

Using whatever years they played FC as being available for theoretical test selection, what's the best side you could have got during the isolation period?

That 71/72 tour squad posted earlier lacked Cook, Kirsten and Garth Le Roux, but push forward a few years and you lose Peter Pollock and Trevor Goddard (though I see he's not in the squad, had he organically retired before the isolation began?)

In 1980 Mike Procter was asked to pick a team representing ten years of isolation, with himself as captain. He chose a squad of 13:

Richards, Jimmy Cook, Peter Kirsten, Graeme Pollock, Allan Lamb, Rice, Barlow, Procter*, Tich Smith+, le Roux, van der Bijl, and Hobson or Kourie as spinner.

 

[mr_mister]

Damn, Lamb was that highly rated by 1980?

 

[mr_mister]

Also, I know Colin Bland retired in '66 from tests, but played FC til '74. Any chance he'd have come back between 70-74 if isolation hadn't happened?

Such a long time to play FC after retiring from tests.

 

[Northerner]

I am not sure they all played FC cricket exactly in the same time, but I believe around 1974/75 most were available:

Eddie Barlow
Barry Richards
Peter Kirsten
Graeme Pollock
Lee Irvine (wk)
Tony Greig
Clive Rice (c)
Mike Procter
Alan Kourie
Vincent Van Der Bijli
Garth Le Roux

Squad:
Jimmy Cook
Allan Lamb
Denis Lindsay
Rupart Hanley
Denis Hobson

Goddard retired in 70 from FC as well, and Peter in 72.

Kenny McEwan would have been in the squad for me, but that is a great squad,

 

[howitzer]

I am not sure they all played FC cricket exactly in the same time, but I believe around 1974/75 most were available:

Eddie Barlow
Barry Richards
Peter Kirsten
Graeme Pollock
Lee Irvine (wk)
Tony Greig
Clive Rice (c)
Mike Procter
Alan Kourie
Vincent Van Der Bijli
Garth Le Roux

Squad:
Jimmy Cook
Allan Lamb
Denis Lindsay
Rupart Hanley
Denis Hobson

Goddard retired in 70 from FC as well, and Peter in 72.

Greig is a bit of a different case to others as he'd already put his lot into qualifying for England before isolation started. It could be argued that, extremely clever as he was, he saw the way the tide was turning but I tend to exclude him from isolation era XIs as I'm pretty sure he'd have been an England player anyway.

 

[SeamUp]

Also, I know Colin Bland retired in '66 from tests, but played FC til '74. Any chance he'd have come back between 70-74 if isolation hadn't happened?

Such a long time to play FC after retiring from tests.

Did he officially retire at 29 from tests in 1967? Odd one.

Rhodesia 56/57 to 68/69
Eastern Province 69/70 to 70/71
Orange Free State 72/73 to 73/74

The OFS would have been Division 2. Think the only Div2 player selected consistently was Denis Lindsay at NE TVL

These were his season records after his last tests.

 

[mr_mister]

Did he officially retire at 29 from tests in 1967? Odd one.

Rhodesia 56/57 to 68/69
Eastern Province 69/70 to 70/71
Orange Free State 72/73 to 73/74

The OFS would have been Division 2. Think the only Div2 player selected consistently was Denis Lindsay at NE TVL

These were his season records after his last tests.



View attachment 39782

His wiki mentions an injury sustained while fielding lead to his early retirement from tests, but not FC. Strange logic indeed.

He was averaging 49 in tests so surely his omission after 1966 was of his own volition.. it just seems strange

 

[mr_mister]

Though after looking at the FC stats, maybe the injury just lead to his spot being given to someone else temporarily, but then Bland couldn't take back the spot from the incumbent due to a poor 69/70 season

 

[SeamUp]

Greig is a bit of a different case to others as he'd already put his lot into qualifying for England before isolation started. It could be argued that, extremely clever as he was, he saw the way the tide was turning but I tend to exclude him from isolation era XIs as I'm pretty sure he'd have been an England player anyway.

Think you're right on his smarts. Was having a look now. Played just the one game for Border in Div 2 Currie Cup in 65/66 before his first season at Sussex in 1967. Played with his cousin Roy Taylor for Border with Buster Farrer captain who is 1 of the last few remaining SA test cricketers alive from before isolation.

Just out of interest because that's me

Border (7 Div 1 seasons which included 2 in the mid 80s before getting back in 90/91), Griquas (4 Div 1 seasons before 96/97), N/E TVL (5 Div 1 seasons before 80/81) & OFS (6 Div 1 season before 84/85) were largely Div 2 teams with B teams. Boland came 80/81 before Div 1 94/95 or 95/96.

Div 1 was from Natal (never relegated), TVL (never relegated), WP and EP (both 3 seasons in Div 2) & Rhodesia (8 seasons in Div 2) talking post WWII

so a lot of the Border boys left like Greig (EP), Chris Wilkins (EP/Natal), Kenny Watson (EP, N TVL), Ken McEwan (EP/WP), Muzzell brothers (played WP, EP, TVL), Hytlon Ackerman (NE TVL, Natal, WP), Cullinan (WP, TVL)

Same for others like Pretorians Barlow and Lance played for Transvaal. But Jackie Botten and Syd Burke chose to stay like Lindsay.

Wessels with the bright lights of Sussex chose to leave OFS for WP but Neil Rosendorff, Strydom, Le Roux & East stayed. Heine played TVL, N TVL

Michael Doherty & Des Schoenegevel was Griquas best players with the latter going to OFS. The Draper brothers before them although the oldest living test cricketer Ron went to EP.

 

[SeamUp]

Damn, Lamb was that highly rated by 1980?

I think he debuted before P Kirsten for WP. By 81/82 Lamb was vice-captain and P Kirsten captain. But Lamb's first dominant season was 76/77 & he beat his good mate Peter to leading WP run-scorer for the first time in 79/80

 

[howitzer]

I think he debuted before P Kirsten for WP. By 81/82 Lamb was vice-captain and P Kirsten captain. But Lamb's first dominant season was 79/80 where he beat his good mate Peter to leading WP run-scorer for the season.

View attachment 39783

Now that's a batting line up one would pay to watch.