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Do SC Pacers Deserve More Credit For Home Performances?

S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Slifer said:
No because that's not Subz's motivation. He wants Imran ranked higher and Imran's record to have 1-2 points lopped off overall. That's also unfair. Give Imran extra credit for doing well at home but not deducting points for doing well in supposedly more favorite conditions, how is that fair?
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First it was Wasim, now Imran. All goalpost moving. Stop assuming my intentions and just address the argument. I am beginning to think you have some deep seated resistance against having to rethink how you assess SC pacers.

Slifer said:
I'd agree to this: give SC bowlers extra credit for doing well at home but deduct them accordingly, when they perform less so in more favorable conditions. And I'm not talking of a one or two runs drop off, a difference of 5+ runs is a significant drop off.
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Ok then do that first. We already judge their away record by its merits and you know that.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
OverratedSanity said:
The unwillingness to engage with the question without engaging in irrelevant statements about away records is actually exposing the bias even more. This is some of subshakerz's best work.
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Honestly, they are projecting. I am very clear how I rank players and get pushback based on that.

They are suddenly caught in the midst of having to rethink how they judge players and they clearly don't want to do that.
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
subshakerz said:
First it was Wasim, now Imran. All goalpost moving. Stop assuming my intentions and just address the argument. I am beginning to think you have some deep seated resistance against having to rethink how you assess SC pacers.


Ok then do that first. We already judge their away record by its merits and you know that.
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Ok let’s agree at that and leave this then.
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
subshakerz said:
Doing well in NZ and Eng is a completely different challenge. Why do I have to explain this to you or have you missed my point?
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I missed nothing. I said fine, give Asian bowlers extra credit for performing in their more difficult home conditions but we're also taking away that credit when they underperform (relatively speaking) in more favorable conditions outside Asia.

Imran amazing at home with an average of 19 or do and a sr of 47. Let's give him a two run credit brings his overall average down to 20.81 or so. But wait, in more pace friendly Australia he averaged 10 runs more and sr of 67. We'll tack back on a half of a run. Averaged 5 more in England: add on another half. Averaged 6 runs more in WI but excellent sr so a third of a run. NZ? 7 runs difference. Add back on a third (small sample size). Lol we more or less end up where we started: Imran being at a little under 23 average wise.

Maybe we give Imran a larger point credit Subz?? 🤔
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
OverratedSanity said:
This. Is. Already. Done.



This is not.
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I disagree. In my mind Imran and Wasim do get credit for doing well in Asia (actually Pakistan) but they'll lose out to Sir Richard Hadlee or a Marshall because they both were universally great.

This whole thread as someone mentioned before imo is pointless. Why? Many of us already give the Asian bowlers credit for doing well at home and then we deduct it when they are less than stellar away.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
Sunil1z said:
And I think people rate him as 27-28 bowler . Name me few 27-28 avg bowlers who are rated higher than Kapil ?
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Lemme see. Broad, Starc, Johnson, Morkel, Thomson, Alderman.

Would all be examples I can think of off the top of my head.
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
OverratedSanity said:
The unwillingness to engage with the question without engaging in irrelevant statements about away records is actually exposing the bias even more. This is some of subshakerz's best work.
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We already engaged with the question. I've said fine give Asian fast bowlers extra credit, so long as it's taken away when they underperform in away/more favorable conditions. This is something we pretty much already do.

And stats away aren't irrelevant because if you're saying conditions in Pakistan(Asia) are much less pace friendly (they generally are) logical deduction is that conditions outside of Asia are more pace friendly. No?

Subz suggested a 2 point deduction reward (probably trolling). So should we not then take those points back for underperforming away?(Underperforming = +5 runs). Because afaic, when we look at any player we're looking at the overall picture. Oh and beyond the wickets, there are other things to factor in like batting strength, rules etc.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
subshakerz said:
The same recycled argument. Away this, away that, anything to not give SC pacers extra home credit. We don't see these excuses when it comes to Kallis at home, everyone takes it at face value.

It's quite simple, are you willing to treat a SC pacers' home career as an independent achievement or not? Do you give them credit to adapting to difficult conditions or not?
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This is so very simple.

If he was disadvantaged by having to play home tests in Pakistan and they were so very hard.

Simple question, why didn't he make hay in other countries like Australia, India was no worse than Pakistan, he averaged under 24 in no country but Pakistan. I'll give a pass in England because of this hos first tour, outside of that it's not great.

And let's address the real elephant in the room.

You mentioned NZ as having poor umps and tampering as well, but Hadlee performed just as well outside of NZ.

Let's be frank, a lot of posters, former players, pundits believed some of Imran's, success at home was due to alternate means, the fact that he performed so poorly in more helpful conditions, that you insist that he would have benefitted from playing in as a home country, doesn't do much to dispel that. Look at what Marshall averaged in Pakistan and India, this isn't that hard.

You know all of this, yet this is your great campaign, tour holy grail and it divides the community and causes these stupid threads. I might push a dumb ass agenda, but 1. It's relevant (I'm just ahead of my time), and 2. It's doesn't divide everyone.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
subshakerz said:
Kapil would adapt.
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Why couldn’t he adapt when he played then? He played county cricket too so its not like he didn’t have experience and its not like he was facing super strong English lineups.

Botham was able to adapt and average 25 in India against a stronger batting lineup. But Kapil is more adaptable and better :laugh:
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
kyear2 said:
This is so very simple.

If he was disadvantaged by having to play home tests in Pakistan and they were so very hard.

Simple question, why didn't he make hay in other countries like Australia, India was no worse than Pakistan, he averaged under 24 in no country but Pakistan. I'll give a pass in England because of this hos first tour, outside of that it's not great.

And let's address the real elephant in the room.

You mentioned NZ as having poor umps and tampering as well, but Hadlee performed just as well outside of NZ.

Let's be frank, a lot of posters, former players, pundits believed some of Imran's, success at home was due to alternate means, the fact that he performed so poorly in more helpful conditions, that you insist that he would have benefitted from playing in as a home country, doesn't do much to dispel that. Look at what Marshall averaged in Pakistan and India, this isn't that hard.

You know all of this, yet this is your great campaign, tour holy grail and it divides the community and causes these stupid threads. I might push a dumb ass agenda, but 1. It's relevant (I'm just ahead of my time), and 2. It's doesn't divide everyone.
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It's fun watching him defend Imran though, aka his only motivation.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
This is so very simple.

If he was disadvantaged by having to play home tests in Pakistan and they were so very hard.

Simple question, why didn't he make hay in other countries like Australia, India was no worse than Pakistan, he averaged under 24 in no country but Pakistan. I'll give a pass in England because of this hos first tour, outside of that it's not great.

And let's address the real elephant in the room.

You mentioned NZ as having poor umps and tampering as well, but Hadlee performed just as well outside of NZ.

Let's be frank, a lot of posters, former players, pundits believed some of Imran's, success at home was due to alternate means, the fact that he performed so poorly in more helpful conditions, that you insist that he would have benefitted from playing in as a home country, doesn't do much to dispel that. Look at what Marshall averaged in Pakistan and India, this isn't that hard.

You know all of this, yet this is your great campaign, tour holy grail and it divides the community and causes these stupid threads. I might push a dumb ass agenda, but 1. It's relevant (I'm just ahead of my time), and 2. It's doesn't divide everyone.
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So to summarize the opposing argument, it is ok to give SC bowlers credit for home performances:

- As long as we make it clear that they found their own ways to adapt, so it wasn't a big deal

- As long as we can ignore it in favor of away performances

- As long as it can never affect our ratings and ranking of these bowlers. Ever.
 
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