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Do England Miss The Pace Of Welsh Wizard Simon Jones ?

The Masterplan

The Masterplan

U19 Debutant
Harmison is still classed as 'Right Arm Fast' eventhough he's consistently bowling in the low 80's, but I guess at his peak he was a 90+mph bowler.. and probably the best in the world.
 
Top_Cat

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Richard said:
Even pre-cruciate-ligament injury, Jones was no more than 92-93mph tops (though the media made many people believe he was faster than this prior to his Test debut, as he had never been timed before then). He was never Allan Donald or Shoaib Akhtar material, more Darren Gough or (early-career) Glenn McGrath.
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Reckon? Darren Gough at his quickest was damn sharp but I would say Jones' average speed would have been a fair bit sharper. Gough in the low 140's, Jones in the mid to high 140's and possibly 150's when he really stretched it. Certainly on his first tour to Australia, he was in the 145-150km/h bracket fairly regularly. Distinctly remember his ball to get Justin Langer caught behind before he did his knee was 145km/h+, possibly 148km/h? Either way, before that injury, he rushed every Aussie batsman who faced him.

As for McGrath, he was never in that bracket. When he was really topping out, he himself in an autobiography claims he was once clocked at 144km/h but says he never really tried bowling all out, preferring to concentrate on accuracy, etc. Gough and Jones were another level quicker than him most of the time. Agreed though that Jones was never an out-and-out speedster but geez, he was quick enough.
 
Gloucefan

Gloucefan

U19 Vice-Captain
Richard said:
Indeed, CricInfo and TV profiles had Curtley Ambrose and Courtney Walsh as "right-arm fast" in 2000 when they were both around about 80mph. :laugh:

Of course, both were still as good as if not better than ever, but they were categorically not fast any more.
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Exactly, pace is overrated. You can be a great bowler without express pace but not without accuracy.
 
Manee

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
Richard said:
Indeed, CricInfo and TV profiles had Curtley Ambrose and Courtney Walsh as "right-arm fast" in 2000 when they were both around about 80mph. :laugh:

Of course, both were still as good as if not better than ever, but they were categorically not fast any more.
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Yeah.

From clips I have seen, neither looked like they were ever too far from 85mph.
 
Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Top_Cat said:
Reckon? Darren Gough at his quickest was damn sharp but I would say Jones' average speed would have been a fair bit sharper. Gough in the low 140's, Jones in the mid to high 140's and possibly 150's when he really stretched it. Certainly on his first tour to Australia, he was in the 145-150km/h bracket fairly regularly. Distinctly remember his ball to get Justin Langer caught behind before he did his knee was 145km/h+, possibly 148km/h? Either way, before that injury, he rushed every Aussie batsman who faced him.

As for McGrath, he was never in that bracket. When he was really topping out, he himself in an autobiography claims he was once clocked at 144km/h but says he never really tried bowling all out, preferring to concentrate on accuracy, etc. Gough and Jones were another level quicker than him most of the time. Agreed though that Jones was never an out-and-out speedster but geez, he was quick enough.
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I've seen McGrath clocked at 91mph (unsure of that in ks TBH) and Gough's fastest I've seen is 92 (which was still not quite a match for Donald :)). McGrath was a fair bit slower than that from, what, 2000 or so onwards and Gough and Jones would certainly have been notably quicker. But the early McGrath was very sharp, and I wasn't terribly surprised when he clocked over 90 in WC99.

So basically, Jones (when fit) was essentially the same as Gough (when fit), for my money. Not totally sure about average-speeds, as they generally require either luck (seeing some averages given, which for near enough all of Gough's career you could count-out as the ball-by-ball speed was a sensational enough toy) or sitting by the TV with a calculator (maybe 3 or 4 calculators :wacko:), neither of which I did. :)
 
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Top_Cat

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Richard said:
I've seen McGrath clocked at 91mph (unsure of that in ks TBH) and Gough's fastest I've seen is 92 (which was still not quite a match for Donald :)). McGrath was a fair bit slower than that from, what, 2000 or so onwards and Gough and Jones would certainly have been notably quicker. But the early McGrath was very sharp, and I wasn't terribly surprised when he clocked over 90 in WC99.

So basically, Jones (when fit) was essentially the same as Gough (when fit), for my money. Not totally sure about average-speeds, as they generally require either luck (seeing some averages given, which for near enough all of Gough's career you could count-out as the ball-by-ball speed was a sensational enough toy) or sitting by the TV with a calculator (maybe 3 or 4 calculators :wacko:), neither of which I did. :)
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90mph is about 145km/h. McGrath was bowling as quick as I'd seen him in the '99 WC. I think he was stepping it up a bit. He always had the capability to bowl was deliberately bowled within himself. Even as late as the 2003 WC, he was occasionally up to 140km/h+.

I still say Jones was marginally quicker than Gough overall although, to be honest, have nothing to support it. :D
 
Burgey

Burgey

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Manee said:
Yeah.

From clips I have seen, neither looked like they were ever too far from 85mph.
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I'd reckon they were a fair bit quicker than that when they were young, but I guess we'll never really know.

You see someone like Lee who bowls 150+, and he's been played with a fair bit of comfort by good players (at least until recently) yet there are guys who are clocked at 135-140ish who seem to hurry batsmen. If you watched the clips of those guys, then ones of Lee, each without a speed recorded, you'd probably reckon the other guys (like Ambrose and/ or Walsh) were faster.
 
Richard

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
There's a difference, though, between hurrying players and forcing them to play uncomfortable strokes. It can look like a batsman is hurried, to the casual eye, if he's simply beaten by a sharp ball (say, 87mph) that nips back a bit which he was first thinking to leave then tried to play.

What's more, of course, bowlers who lose less pace off the pitch ("bowl a heavy ball") and\or are harder to pick-up out of the hand (both of which Walsh fitted to-a-teed) than "normal" bowlers (like Michael Holding or Brett Lee) can often actually hurry people more despite being a few mph less quick out of the hand.
 
Son Of Coco

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Bit of extra bounce helps too imo. Walsh, McGrath, Ambrose and so on were tall guys so I think their pace was accentuated to some degree. Lee skids it on more as he is a short (if not rather large) arse.
 
Son Of Coco

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Richard said:
Don't think Mahmood is remotely comparable to Tudor. Malcolm maybe, but still I very much doubt Mahmood could've taken Test nine-fors and ten-fors.

Alex Tudor was a class bowler, he had accuracy the like of which Mahmood can only dream of. Not McGrath-esque or anything, but not that much worse than a Cork or Gough. The only thing that stopped him having a substantial Test career was the ostentus pubis (something like that - I have been corrected on CW.n before now on that note 8-)) which meant he was more injured than not.
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He also suffered from "Poor Shotus Ballus Clangus Headitis" and "Stupidus Pomus Bowlingii Ballus Shortus Atus Otherismo Muchos Fasteros Bowlerus Headus Whichus Givesus Himus Theus ****sus"
 
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