Did South Africa choke?

[Niall]

What are the clear cut examples of South Africa choking? Before this match, I mean.

The obvious 2 are the last 2 world cup semi finals. Australia sledged them before the 2007 game and they tried to bat like Afridi on steroids and collapsed in awful fashion. The choke against NZ in 2011 was brutal, some pressure in a small chase then, Hashim " I save my runs for bilateral series " Amla got out, Faf ran out AB and a collapse where the supposed all rounders and massive choker (at the time at least) JP Duminy looked as if they never had batted before.

t20 world cups? A few as well. In 2007 collapsed at home when they didn't even need to win to qualify for the semi finals.

They also choked in the 2013 Champions Trophy in England also, awful batting that day, and needing Miller and Kleinveldt to get them past 100 which England chased without breaking sweat.


However don't think Tuesday was a choke at those levels. The batting against Australia in 2007 was LOL bad, the chase against NZ should have been a breeze but they blew it horribly,however never did you feel they had the 2015 semi under complete control like 2011 and they were never were as bad as they were in 2007 the other day.

 

[Niall]

I will say at least going forward the likes of Faf,Miller and AB have all proven they can score runs when it really matters which is good news for next years world cup. JP has always underwhelmed but can't be blamed for the semi final as he didn't get much time to bat and to be fair played a clutch innings along with Faf against India last year in the t20 semi final.

Not sure though if Roussow and QDK have the class and bottle to make a difference next year, the IPL will give us some clue, different beast but it is the same country and they will be required to get runs at crucial moments, they are very young though, so loads of time on their side.

 

[Days of Grace]

So if South Africa loses a close match it's a choke. If they get blown off the park it's a choke. If they lose when they had complete control of the match at one point then it's a choke.

Only one of the above is a true choke imo.

 

[Jono]

That was either a choke or a selfish attempt to preserve his 39 wins from 40 not outs chasing. Fair call?

this has gotta be a piss take yeah?

Game was over when he got out, and why would he run himself out to help his record.

Dear God.

 

[Victor Ian]

this has gotta be a piss take yeah?

Game was over when he got out, and why would he run himself out to help his record.

Dear God.

see post 139

 

[3703]

'Fear of failure' is the most rubbish term i've encountered in this thread or with anyone that i've been discussing this South African defeat. If South African players were playing with fear in the field then the game would've been done and dusted way earlier than it actually did.

How...cogent.

Seriously are you trying to make as little sense as you possibly can?

 

[Jono]

The obvious 2 are the last 2 world cup semi finals. Australia sledged them before the 2007 game and they tried to bat like Afridi on steroids and collapsed in awful fashion. The choke against NZ in 2011 was brutal, some pressure in a small chase then, Hashim " I save my runs for bilateral series " Amla got out, Faf ran out AB and a collapse where the supposed all rounders and massive choker (at the time at least) JP Duminy looked as if they never had batted before.

t20 world cups? A few as well. In 2007 collapsed at home when they didn't even need to win to qualify for the semi finals.

They also choked in the 2013 Champions Trophy in England also, awful batting that day, and needing Miller and Kleinveldt to get them past 100 which England chased without breaking sweat.


However don't think Tuesday was a choke at those levels. The batting against Australia in 2007 was LOL bad, the chase against NZ should have been a breeze but they blew it horribly,however never did you feel they had the 2015 semi under complete control like 2011 and they were never were as bad as they were in 2007 the other day.

NZ game was a quarter final in 2011 ftr

 

[Niall]

NZ game was a quarter final in 2011 ftr

My bad.

 

[Furball]

They had a pretty poor exit from the 2009 T20 World Cup as well, blew it from a very winnable position.

I'm refraining from calling that particular one a choke because Pakistan's attack that tournament was amazing.

 

[theegyptian]

Wouldn't exactly say this was choke. Small margins between relatively even teams. Maybe underperformed in certain areas but also batted well under pressure. But at the end of the day I feel like they'll look back at the game (and tournament) with some regret and ask themselves 'did we really play our best game and get the tactics right?' Sometimes simply not choking isn't enough to win a game.

Dunno what's worse. Being an England fan with no quality players and having no realstic expectations or SA with plenty of world class players but knowing that they probably won't put it together on the big stage.

 

[anil1405]

Wouldn't exactly say this was choke. Small margins between relatively even teams. Maybe underperformed in certain areas but also batted well under pressure. But at the end of the day I feel like they'll look back at the game (and tournament) with some regret and ask themselves 'did we really play our best game and get the tactics right?' Sometimes simply not choking isn't enough to win a game.

Dunno what's worse. Being an England fan with no quality players and having no realstic expectations or SA with plenty of world class players but knowing that they probably won't put it together on the big stage.

There is no comparison there mate. Nothing worse than being an English fan. England are pretty meh at both cricket (ODIs) and football. Lets just imagine for a second that both the scenario's you mentioned are equally bad, in which case the English media would rub it in and make English cricket look much worse (it still is worse) while the reactions inside South Africa would be quite the opposite.

Besides, South Africa just had one world class player in this tournament (Amla never delivers in crunch games anyway) and overall the team is a good side but nothing great.

 

[theegyptian]

There is no comparison there mate. Nothing worse than being an English fan. England are pretty meh at both cricket (ODIs) and football. Lets just imagine for a second that both the scenario's you mentioned are equally bad, in which case the English media would rub it in and make English cricket look much worse (it still is worse) while the reactions inside South Africa would be quite the opposite.

Besides, South Africa just had one world class player in this tournament (Amla never delivers in crunch games anyway) and overall the team is a good side but nothing great.

Meh we won a world t20 in recent times. Won quite a lot of ashes series in recent times against one of the best teams in the world. Won in India away from home. IN that respect we've been on a par or slightly better than SA over the last ten years and yet we never really produce world class players. Maybe KP in T20 cricket and before that Flintoff in odi cricket?

If Amla doesn't count as world class ODI bat there are very few world class players.

And they've had plenty of world class players over the last twenty years and basically done nothing apart from a brief spell as the leading test nation.

What's the point in having world class players if you ain't going to win big competitions? Personal records are all well and good but if De Villiers doesn't win an international tournament the records don't mean much.

 

[anil1405]

Meh we won a world t20 in recent times. Won quite a lot of ashes series in recent times against one of the best teams in the world. Won in India away from home. IN that respect we've been on a par or slightly better than SA over the last ten years and yet we never really produce world class players. Maybe KP in T20 cricket and before that Flintoff in odi cricket?

If Amla doesn't count as world class ODI bat there are very few world class players.

And they've had plenty of world class players over the last twenty years and basically done nothing apart from a brief spell as the leading test nation.

What's the point in having world class players if you ain't going to win big competitions? Personal records are all well and good but if De Villiers doesn't win an international tournament the records don't mean much.

I've specifically mentioned ODIs in bracket. Am aware that England have a completely different outlook in T20 and they are a team to watch in tests when in full flow. Its the ODIs where they disappoint big time.

Amla does count as world class. A world class player who doesn't deliver in big tournaments. So most of the fans aren't surprised to see Amla fail in crunch games this WC as his failure is kinda expected.

Agree with you that Proteas had strong teams in the past and should have won it on two or three occasions. But for the last three world cups they haven't had a squad which could be termed as favourites to win the WC. So the feelings of being disappointed are surely not as bad as probably they were in the late 90's.

DeVilliers can only do so much. You cannot blame AB as in 2011 he was run out by Faf and here he did what he could and then his knock was interrupted.

 

[theegyptian]

I've specifically mentioned ODIs in bracket. Am aware that England have a completely different outlook in T20 and they are a team to watch in tests when in full flow. Its the ODIs where they disappoint big time.

Amla does count as world class. A world class player who doesn't deliver in big tournaments. So most of the fans aren't surprised to see Amla fail in crunch games this WC as his failure is kinda expected.

Agree with you that Proteas had strong teams in the past and should have won it on two or three occasions. But for the last three world cups they haven't had a squad which could be termed as favourites to win the WC. So the feelings of being disappointed are surely not as bad as probably they were in the late 90's.

DeVilliers can only do so much. You cannot blame AB as in 2011 he was run out by Faf and here he did what he could and then his knock was interrupted.

Yes I mean clearly De Villiers really couldn't have done much more apart from maybe captain better. The cruel fact is that there is only one winner.

In isolation you say SA lost a close semifinal. Looking at the bigger picture they've had the potential to win the last however many 50 over and 20 over wcs but haven't. Tbf they seem to have finally got in together in test cricket for the most part.

It's disappointing from SA perspective that they produce the talent but can't produce at the tournament. And for England it's disappointing that they can't produce the players to give them a chance.

The majority of players are there to win games and win tournaments. It's only the minority who are chasing personal achievements. Not sure a countries fans particularly care about the career records of their players. They just want to win tournaments.

 

[anil1405]

Being a Proteas fan is not as bad as being an English fan for sure. Yea, the disappointment of not winning WC might last for a brief period before and after the WC. But seeing the team perform well regularly probably eases that grief to a good extent of not having won a WC.

Plus the limited number of local Proteas supporters I have spoken to over the years don't really take the defeats to heart. They simply move on which I presume is the case throughout the country as even the media doesn't point fingers at the players or the team. Thats not the case with UK though. Having lived in UK and having been a casual supporter of the English football team for a brief period, I can safely say that the overall disappointment of seeing the English team lose is much worse. Even if you don't feel bad or disappointed for the team then the media surely does and will constantly remind you of every defeat.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Is there an English-Afrikaaner split on what sport they follow in SA? Almost all the Afrikaaners I know don't give a **** about cricket.

 

[theegyptian]

Being a Proteas fan is not as bad as being an English fan for sure. Yea, the disappointment of not winning WC might last for a brief period before and after the WC. But seeing the team perform well regularly probably eases that grief to a good extent of not having won a WC.

Plus the limited number of local Proteas supporters I have spoken to over the years don't really take the defeats to heart. They simply move on which I presume is the case throughout the country as even the media doesn't point fingers at the players or the team. Thats not the case with UK though. Having lived in UK and having been a casual supporter of the English football team for a brief period, I can safely say that the overall disappointment of seeing the English team lose is much worse. Even if you don't feel bad or disappointed for the team then the media surely does and will constantly remind you of every defeat.

Not sure what the English football team has to do with the cricket team and it's supporters. Football is another stratosphere in this country compared to cricket in terms of interest so I really don't see the comparison. Generally the english cricket media are fairly pro England cricket and try and put a positive spin on it when things are good and are critical of the bad times but don't dwell on them. Stuff like Steven Davies being gay the English cricket press knew about for a while before Davies came out and there were no leaks- which is hard to believe would happen in football.

My fault though that this thread went offtopic so apologies to everyone.

 

[Furball]

Is there an English-Afrikaaner split on what sport they follow in SA? Almost all the Afrikaaners I know don't give a **** about cricket.

IIRC Afrikaaners are massively into their rugby.

 

[SkyBlue]

Well, I wouldn't say India choked. They were just up against a significantly superior side. Most people had bet that Australia should win comfortably, and they did. I don't how choke fits in here.

I have absolutely no doubt the batsmen choked big time,especially Kohli.That shot was very Sachin-esque from the 2003 WC final.Its not that people expected India to win but it was how easily the batsmen succumbed especially when this batting lineup is touted to be one of the best in the world and great at handling pressure in a chase as evidenced by previous tournaments.

 

[morgieb]

Is there an English-Afrikaaner split on what sport they follow in SA? Almost all the Afrikaaners I know don't give a **** about cricket.

Up until about the 70's most of the South African cricket team were "English", whereas Afrikaans generally played union. So it wouldn't surprise me.