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Dennis Lillee vs Fred Trueman
- Thread starter subshakerz
- Start date
Line and Length
Cricketer Of The Year
I recall reading that Trueman was dropped after an incident in the W.I.. A racist comment was made towards one of the 3 Ws (can't recall which one) with the comment coming in a broad Yorkshire accent. Trueman later maintained it wasn't him and that it was probably Brian Close.
Had Trueman avoided controversies he would have played a lot more tests.
Had Trueman avoided controversies he would have played a lot more tests.
Coronis
International Coach
Reminds me of a current bowler tbh
Trueman was released temporarily from National Service to appear in five home Tests in 1952 and 1953 when he bowled fast and well. Picked to tour West Indies in 1953-54. Dropped after the first Test and recalled for the fourth and fifth.
Hutton's post-tour report made clear that he didn't want Trueman, Lock or Laker in Australia the following winter. Cricketing reasons applied in each case. With Trueman his "angry young man" behaviour was another factor. He was picked for only three home Tests out of fourteen during the next three summers. Trueman was chosen in an MCC A tour party to Pakistan in 1955-56 but his selection was vetoed by chairman of selectors Gubby Allen. With Statham, Tyson and others ahead in the pecking order, and England picking two fast bowlers plus Bailey for Tests, he was not named in the party to tour South Africa in 1956-57 either.
Did well in home Tests in 1957 and 1958, then went to Australia in 1958-59. Unfit for first Test and left out of second. Manager Freddie Brown tried to send him home before skipper May intervened. OK in last three matches and New Zealand.
Regular pick between 1959 and 1964, although dropped for single Ashes home Tests in 1961 and 1964. Excellent tour to Caribbean in 1960 when he was at his peak. Bowled well in Australia and NZ in 1962-63. Along with others, didn't make himself available to visit the sub-continent in 1961-62 or 1963-64. Not selected for trip to South Africa 1964-65. Played two more home Tests against New Zealand in 1965 then dropped for good. Reaction: "Couldn't care less. There's a team called Yorkshire I'll still be playing for." Claimed representing Yorkshire was more important to him than turning out for England. Boycott said the same.
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DrWolverine
State 12th Man
It is very difficult to know if Lillee would really have been poor in the subcontinent.
He played 4 Tests in Asia - 3 in Pakistan and 1 in SL at the fag end of his career.
1st Test in Pakistan : It was a minefield of a pitch. Iqbal Qasim & Tausif Ahmed picked 18 out of 20 wickets in that test.
2nd Test in Pakistan : It was a batting paradise. Pak scored 382/2 while Australia scored 620 runs. Both the teams didn’t bat a second time
3rd Test in Pakistan : Another high scoring drawn match where Pakistan batted once and scored 400 and Australia scored 400 in both innings.
Sarfaraz Nawaz who was a decent fast bowler picked 2 wickets in 3 Tests at an average of 127 in that series.
The pitches were so horrible in the series that Imran Khan refused to bowl in 2nd innings of 1st Test and did not play the second Test.
In the third Test, Lillee picked up 3 wickets whereas Imran picked up 2 in each innings.
He played 4 Tests in Asia - 3 in Pakistan and 1 in SL at the fag end of his career.
1st Test in Pakistan : It was a minefield of a pitch. Iqbal Qasim & Tausif Ahmed picked 18 out of 20 wickets in that test.
2nd Test in Pakistan : It was a batting paradise. Pak scored 382/2 while Australia scored 620 runs. Both the teams didn’t bat a second time
3rd Test in Pakistan : Another high scoring drawn match where Pakistan batted once and scored 400 and Australia scored 400 in both innings.
Sarfaraz Nawaz who was a decent fast bowler picked 2 wickets in 3 Tests at an average of 127 in that series.
The pitches were so horrible in the series that Imran Khan refused to bowl in 2nd innings of 1st Test and did not play the second Test.
In the third Test, Lillee picked up 3 wickets whereas Imran picked up 2 in each innings.
Fanboy375
Cricket Spectator
Another thing is that some umpires from Pakistan was extremely biased.As a result Imran Khan established neutral umpiring.Like it known that Javed Miandad was lbw 8 times in 73 dismissals. Outside Pakistan, 25 times in 95 dismissals.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
DrWolverine
State 12th Man
Marshall averaged 23 in Ind & Pak
Roberts averaged 21 in Ind & Pak
Holding averaged 22 in Ind & Pak
Walsh averaged 20 in Ind & Pak
Ambrose averaged 25 in Pak
Ambrose would have done well in India as well
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
15 wickets in 5 tests, one good series in an exceptionally pace friendly series, one horror series on slower pitches where he was outbowled by everyone.
DrWolverine
State 12th Man
That’s not enough to judge him. He was good everywhere else and do not see any reason to say he would have been poor in India
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
His skillset. No mastery of swing or reverse like Steyn and no cutters like Walsh and McGrath. So tell me how he would have succeeded with his back of the length corridor stuff in SC? Maybe on a Kandy seaming wicket.
He has no record in SL and India. He was painful to watch in the 97 series in Pak getting swatted around by Inzi. He even contemplated retirement after that.
kyear2
International Coach
He also pretends there's no dead pitches in Australia or the Caribbean. His home pitch in Antigua was the definition of a batsman's paradise.
Ambrose, Lara and Kallis, just note it for yourself.
kyear2
International Coach
Wasn't just Javed that benefitted.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
That's like arguing an Aussie spinner doing well in Sydney will logically conquer the SC.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
That's probably true because the SCG has been one of the worst places to bowl spin in the world for decades now.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Recently yeah true.
A couple of other points:
- Geoff Dymock only took 1 wicket (for 129 runs) for the Pan series. A year earlier Geoff took 24 wickets at an average of 24 in 5 test in India
- In the second test only 12 wickets fell (2 where run outs)
- Lillee was in hospital between the second and third test, there was some doubt about whether he would play. When the Australians arrived at the ground, 2 pitches where being prepared; they where told one was if Lillie was available, the other if he was not.
Coronis
International Coach
Say whatever you want about Hutton the batsman but he was clearly a **** man manager and selector.
English selection “policy” at that time in general was pretty horrible imo. More noticeable in the bowling side.