Dennis Lillee vs Fred Trueman

[kyear2]

IIRC he was being a pain in the ass off field going against Hutton's policies like not befriending Windies players and did something that led to one of his checks being blocked, he also struggled in the first two games though iirc they were proper flatties and he was facing the three Ws as a 22 year old, so I don't take it too seriously and he did perform in the third game but yeah, I kind of think Hutton hindered Trueman's career stemming from a decision which was very likely made off of personal opinions due to off field behaviour.

I'm going to have to look it up, but there were over seas tours he was dropped for because the captain didn't think he would have been effective?

Reaching out to @peterhrt for assistance.

 

[Line and Length]

I recall reading that Trueman was dropped after an incident in the W.I.. A racist comment was made towards one of the 3 Ws (can't recall which one) with the comment coming in a broad Yorkshire accent. Trueman later maintained it wasn't him and that it was probably Brian Close.
Had Trueman avoided controversies he would have played a lot more tests.

 

[Coronis]

He was either dropped because they didn't think he would have been effective or personality issues.

But he was dropped more than a bowler of his standing should have been.

Reminds me of a current bowler tbh

 

[peterhrt]

I'm going to have to look it up, but there were over seas tours he was dropped for because the captain didn't think he would have been effective?

Reaching out to @peterhrt for assistance.

Trueman was released temporarily from National Service to appear in five home Tests in 1952 and 1953 when he bowled fast and well. Picked to tour West Indies in 1953-54. Dropped after the first Test and recalled for the fourth and fifth.

Hutton's post-tour report made clear that he didn't want Trueman, Lock or Laker in Australia the following winter. Cricketing reasons applied in each case. With Trueman his "angry young man" behaviour was another factor. He was picked for only three home Tests out of fourteen during the next three summers. Trueman was chosen in an MCC A tour party to Pakistan in 1955-56 but his selection was vetoed by chairman of selectors Gubby Allen. With Statham, Tyson and others ahead in the pecking order, and England picking two fast bowlers plus Bailey for Tests, he was not named in the party to tour South Africa in 1956-57 either.

Did well in home Tests in 1957 and 1958, then went to Australia in 1958-59. Unfit for first Test and left out of second. Manager Freddie Brown tried to send him home before skipper May intervened. OK in last three matches and New Zealand.

Regular pick between 1959 and 1964, although dropped for single Ashes home Tests in 1961 and 1964. Excellent tour to Caribbean in 1960 when he was at his peak. Bowled well in Australia and NZ in 1962-63. Along with others, didn't make himself available to visit the sub-continent in 1961-62 or 1963-64. Not selected for trip to South Africa 1964-65. Played two more home Tests against New Zealand in 1965 then dropped for good. Reaction: "Couldn't care less. There's a team called Yorkshire I'll still be playing for." Claimed representing Yorkshire was more important to him than turning out for England. Boycott said the same.

 

[DrWolverine]

It is very difficult to know if Lillee would really have been poor in the subcontinent.

He played 4 Tests in Asia - 3 in Pakistan and 1 in SL at the fag end of his career.

1st Test in Pakistan : It was a minefield of a pitch. Iqbal Qasim & Tausif Ahmed picked 18 out of 20 wickets in that test.

2nd Test in Pakistan : It was a batting paradise. Pak scored 382/2 while Australia scored 620 runs. Both the teams didn’t bat a second time

3rd Test in Pakistan : Another high scoring drawn match where Pakistan batted once and scored 400 and Australia scored 400 in both innings.

Sarfaraz Nawaz who was a decent fast bowler picked 2 wickets in 3 Tests at an average of 127 in that series.

The pitches were so horrible in the series that Imran Khan refused to bowl in 2nd innings of 1st Test and did not play the second Test.

In the third Test, Lillee picked up 3 wickets whereas Imran picked up 2 in each innings.

 

[Fanboy375]

It is very difficult to know if Lillee would really have been poor in the subcontinent.

He played 4 Tests in Asia - 3 in Pakistan and 1 in SL at the fag end of his career.

1st Test in Pakistan : It was a minefield of a pitch. Iqbal Qasim & Tausif Ahmed picked 18 out of 20 wickets in that test.

2nd Test in Pakistan : It was a batting paradise. Pak scored 382/2 while Australia scored 620 runs. Both the teams didn’t bat a second time

3rd Test in Pakistan : Another high scoring drawn match where Pakistan batted once and scored 400 and Australia scored 400 in both innings.

Sarfaraz Nawaz who was a decent fast bowler picked 2 wickets in 3 Tests at an average of 127 in that series.

The pitches were so horrible in the series that Imran Khan refused to bowl in 2nd innings of 1st Test and did not play the second Test.

In the third Test, Lillee picked up 3 wickets whereas Imran picked up 2 in each innings.

Another thing is that some umpires from Pakistan was extremely biased.As a result Imran Khan established neutral umpiring.Like it known that Javed Miandad was lbw 8 times in 73 dismissals. Outside Pakistan, 25 times in 95 dismissals.

 

[subshakerz]

It is very difficult to know if Lillee would really have been poor in the subcontinent.

He played 4 Tests in Asia - 3 in Pakistan and 1 in SL at the fag end of his career.

1st Test in Pakistan : It was a minefield of a pitch. Iqbal Qasim & Tausif Ahmed picked 18 out of 20 wickets in that test.

2nd Test in Pakistan : It was a batting paradise. Pak scored 382/2 while Australia scored 620 runs. Both the teams didn’t bat a second time

3rd Test in Pakistan : Another high scoring drawn match where Pakistan batted once and scored 400 and Australia scored 400 in both innings.

Sarfaraz Nawaz who was a decent fast bowler picked 2 wickets in 3 Tests at an average of 127 in that series.

The pitches were so horrible in the series that Imran Khan refused to bowl in 2nd innings of 1st Test and did not play the second Test.

In the third Test, Lillee picked up 3 wickets whereas Imran picked up 2 in each innings.

Lillee had a mix of swing and cutters and would have adapted.

Ambrose however...

 

[DrWolverine]

Lillee had a mix of swing and cutters and would have adapted.

Ambrose however...

Marshall averaged 23 in Ind & Pak
Roberts averaged 21 in Ind & Pak
Holding averaged 22 in Ind & Pak
Walsh averaged 20 in Ind & Pak
Ambrose averaged 25 in Pak

Ambrose would have done well in India as well

 

[subshakerz]

Marshall averaged 23 in Ind & Pak
Roberts averaged 21 in Ind & Pak
Holding averaged 22 in Ind & Pak
Walsh averaged 20 in Ind & Pak
Ambrose averaged 25 in Pak

Ambrose would have done well in India as well

15 wickets in 5 tests, one good series in an exceptionally pace friendly series, one horror series on slower pitches where he was outbowled by everyone.

 

[DrWolverine]

That’s not enough to judge him. He was good everywhere else and do not see any reason to say he would have been poor in India

 

[subshakerz]

That’s not enough to judge him. He was good everywhere else and do not see any reason to say he would have been poor in India

His skillset. No mastery of swing or reverse like Steyn and no cutters like Walsh and McGrath. So tell me how he would have succeeded with his back of the length corridor stuff in SC? Maybe on a Kandy seaming wicket.

He has no record in SL and India. He was painful to watch in the 97 series in Pak getting swatted around by Inzi. He even contemplated retirement after that.

 

[kyear2]

That’s not enough to judge him. He was good everywhere else and do not see any reason to say he would have been poor in India

He also pretends there's no dead pitches in Australia or the Caribbean. His home pitch in Antigua was the definition of a batsman's paradise.

Ambrose, Lara and Kallis, just note it for yourself.

 

[kyear2]

Another thing is that some umpires from Pakistan was extremely biased.As a result Imran Khan established neutral umpiring.Like it known that Javed Miandad was lbw 8 times in 73 dismissals. Outside Pakistan, 25 times in 95 dismissals.

Wasn't just Javed that benefitted.

 

[subshakerz]

He also pretends there's no dead pitches in Australia or the Caribbean. His home pitch in Antigua was the definition of a batsman's paradise.
L

That's like arguing an Aussie spinner doing well in Sydney will logically conquer the SC.

 

[Prince EWS]

That's like arguing an Aussie spinner doing well in Sydney will logically conquer the SC.

That's probably true because the SCG has been one of the worst places to bowl spin in the world for decades now.

 

[subshakerz]

That's probably true because the SCG has been one of the worst places to bowl spin in the world for decades now.

Recently yeah true.

 

[MartinB]

It is very difficult to know if Lillee would really have been poor in the subcontinent.
He played 4 Tests in Asia - 3 in Pakistan and 1 in SL at the fag end of his career.
1st Test in Pakistan : It was a minefield of a pitch. Iqbal Qasim & Tausif Ahmed picked 18 out of 20 wickets in that test.
2nd Test in Pakistan : It was a batting paradise. Pak scored 382/2 while Australia scored 620 runs. Both the teams didn’t bat a second time
3rd Test in Pakistan : Another high scoring drawn match where Pakistan batted once and scored 400 and Australia scored 400 in both innings.
Sarfaraz Nawaz who was a decent fast bowler picked 2 wickets in 3 Tests at an average of 127 in that series.
The pitches were so horrible in the series that Imran Khan refused to bowl in 2nd innings of 1st Test and did not play the second Test.
In the third Test, Lillee picked up 3 wickets whereas Imran picked up 2 in each innings.

A couple of other points:

• Geoff Dymock only took 1 wicket (for 129 runs) for the Pan series. A year earlier Geoff took 24 wickets at an average of 24 in 5 test in India
• In the second test only 12 wickets fell (2 where run outs)
• Lillee was in hospital between the second and third test, there was some doubt about whether he would play. When the Australians arrived at the ground, 2 pitches where being prepared; they where told one was if Lillie was available, the other if he was not.

 

[Coronis]

Trueman was released temporarily from National Service to appear in five home Tests in 1952 and 1953 when he bowled fast and well. Picked to tour West Indies in 1953-54. Dropped after the first Test and recalled for the fourth and fifth.

Hutton's post-tour report made clear that he didn't want Trueman, Lock or Laker in Australia the following winter. Cricketing reasons applied in each case. With Trueman his "angry young man" behaviour was another factor. He was picked for only three home Tests out of fourteen during the next three summers. Trueman was chosen in an MCC A tour party to Pakistan in 1955-56 but his selection was vetoed by chairman of selectors Gubby Allen. With Statham, Tyson and others ahead in the pecking order, and England picking two fast bowlers plus Bailey for Tests, he was not named in the party to tour South Africa in 1956-57 either.

Did well in home Tests in 1957 and 1958, then went to Australia in 1958-59. Unfit for first Test and left out of second. Manager Freddie Brown tried to send him home before skipper May intervened. OK in last three matches and New Zealand.

Regular pick between 1959 and 1964, although dropped for single Ashes home Tests in 1961 and 1964. Excellent tour to Caribbean in 1960 when he was at his peak. Bowled well in Australia and NZ in 1962-63. Along with others, didn't make himself available to visit the sub-continent in 1961-62 or 1963-64. Not selected for trip to South Africa 1964-65. Played two more home Tests against New Zealand in 1965 then dropped for good. Reaction: "Couldn't care less. There's a team called Yorkshire I'll still be playing for." Claimed representing Yorkshire was more important to him than turning out for England. Boycott said the same.

Say whatever you want about Hutton the batsman but he was clearly a **** man manager and selector.

English selection “policy” at that time in general was pretty horrible imo. More noticeable in the bowling side.

 

[peterhrt]

English selection “policy” at that time in general was pretty horrible imo. More noticeable in the bowling side.

Trueman was out of favour for three years, from May 1954 to April 1957. In that time he played 3 Tests out of 26. England beat Australia home and away, South Africa at home and New Zealand away, and drew series with South Africa and Pakistan.

Test bowling figures of quicker bowlers during that time: Tyson 67@16, Statham 79@21, Bailey 47@25 (and averaged 28 with bat), Trueman 11@26, Loader 16@29, Bedser 15@29, Moss 0 for 1, Bill Edrich 0 for 28 (and averaged 20 with bat). Spinners took 213 wickets between them at an average of 17.38.

Figures of bowlers above in County Cricket: Statham 246@13, Loader 302@14, Trueman 316@16, Bedser 326@17, Bailey 223@20 (and averaged 42 with bat), Moss 204@20, Tyson 186@20, Edrich 14@25 (and averaged 33 with bat).

County figures of others not selected by England: Jackson 311@15, Shackleton 385@16, Gladwin 377@16.

Graveney and Trueman himself reckoned Les Jackson of Derbyshire was the best bowler in the country. Cowdrey said that Jackson and Shackleton should have played more home Tests overall on greentops at the expense of Trueman and others. Trueman accepted that he was never as fast as Tyson. His peak occurred during the early 1960s when more of a swing/seam bowler, and when English cricket was in decline.

 

[kyear2]

A couple of other points:

• Geoff Dymock only took 1 wicket (for 129 runs) for the Pan series. A year earlier Geoff took 24 wickets at an average of 24 in 5 test in India
• In the second test only 12 wickets fell (2 where run outs)
• Lillee was in hospital between the second and third test, there was some doubt about whether he would play. When the Australians arrived at the ground, 2 pitches where being prepared; they where told one was if Lillie was available, the other if he was not.

Well that speaks volumes.