Dale Steyn vs Allan Donald vs Shaun Pollock

[pardus]

Nah man, could not disagree with you more. I am not denying Donald was a great bowler but I feel there is a touch of romaticism in how you are viewing his achievements vis-a-vis Steyn's. You remind me of how some Indian fans talk about Sachin's knocks when we compare him with Virat, for example, especially in ODIs. If you think Morkel was support and Fanie De Villiers was not, I don't think we ever watched the same game.

Stats wise there is nothing to choose between the two. Yes, Steyn has more wickets but then he played more matches too. So it isn't surprising that this debate goes into intangibles.
So you think excellent support bowlers for Donald prevented batsmen from scoring 300s (or even high-200s) against peak Donald-led-attacks, like they (rather frequently) did against Steyn-led-attacks?

 

[Slifer]

People saying Steyn is in some league higher than Donald or easily better have lost their freaking minds. Again, the only blemish on Donald's record is the 31 he averaged vs Australia. Steyn was very good vs Australia and Sri lanka but was as bad vs England as Donald was vs Australia. And Donald bowled against far stronger batting lineups (especially vs India and Australia) than Steyn ever did.

Donald's record is as complete as any other atg fast bowler, past or present. Steyn was the last of the mohicans for what seemed like an eternity but that alone does not place him in some tier above Donald. No way would Donald get tonked around the way I've seen Steyn do on numerous occasions. I remember in '98, just before our famous 5 nil drubbing, philo Wallace and clayton Lambert had just decimated England at home. And all in the WI had thought, finally we'd found a useful pair to replace Greenidge/Haynes. Donald (with help from Pollock) quickly brought those two to heel. Not to mention Donald utterly dominated Lara. I've seen McGrath dominate Lara in Australia but inevitably, Lara would score at least one hundred. Nope, not with freaking Donald !! WAFG !!!!

 

[pardus]

People saying Steyn is in some league higher than Donald or easily better have lost their freaking minds. Again, the only blemish on Donald's record is the 31 he averaged vs Australia. Steyn was very good vs Australia and Sri lanka but was as bad vs England as Donald was vs Australia. And Donald bowled against far stronger batting lineups (especially vs India and Australia) than Steyn ever did.

Donald's record is as complete as any other atg fast bowler, past or present. Steyn was the last of the mohicans for what seemed like an eternity but that alone does not place him in some tier above Donald. No way would Donald get tonked around the way I've seen Steyn do on numerous occasions. I remember in '98, just before our famous 5 nil drubbing, philo Wallace and clayton Lambert had just decimated England at home. And all in the WI had thought, finally we'd found a useful pair to replace Greenidge/Haynes. Donald (with help from Pollock) quickly brought those two to heel. Not to mention Donald utterly dominated Lara. I've seen McGrath dominate Lara in Australia but inevitably, Lara would score at least one hundred. Nope, not with freaking Donald !! WAFG !!!!

In his book, Curtly Ambrose talks at length about the attitude of the West Indian batsmen in the 1998-99 SA-Windies series, especially about Wallace, Lambert and even Hooper. Ambrose tells - in no ambiguous terms - how sh*t scared they were all - of Donald's bowling.
In one team meeting, apparently Ambrose loses it so bad that he tells them (Wallace & Lambert) if ever they hit him (Ambrose) for a boundary again in their inter-Island matches, the next ball he would come down half the pitch and bowl a bouncer at them.
He doesn't spare Hooper either.

Let me quote verbatim from Ambrose's book:
"After we went 3-0 down in Durban, we held a very heated team meeting and I basically took over. I really lost it and couldn’t take any more because our batting continued to struggle so much. I really ripped into the batsmen. My aggression had been building over time and now, with the series gone, this was the moment when I let the guys have it. I had some harsh words, especially, for Clayton Lambert and Philo Wallace, who looked like fish out of water. We played England earlier in 1998 when they had been aggressive, fearless and effective, so against South Africa I thought they would be the same players against the might of Allan Donald and Shaun Pollock; but not so. I told Lambert and Wallace how disappointed I was with them and said to their faces that they shouldn’t play for West Indies again. I was really upset. I chastised them and also said that if at any time we are playing regional tournaments and either one of them tried to take me apart with their attacking game, I’m going to run halfway down the pitch and try to knock them out (with a bouncer). That’s how they had always tried to play against me before. But they seemed timid against Donald and Pollock and I told them in no uncertain terms that I didn’t appreciate their sudden retreat into their shells. It was disrespectful to me, as though they feared Donald and Pollock more, and it was certainly disrespectful to the team, which was relying on them to come out all guns blazing and show some fight.

In that same meeting I also chastised Carl Hooper greatly. I saw Hoops in the nets on a few occasions on that South Africa tour with the bowling machine set to bowl short-pitched deliveries at him and he was heavily padded up. But over all the years I had played with him, which was a decade by then, I had never seen that before. He was never like that. It was clear that he was intimidated by South Africa’s pace bowling and I ripped into him for being so timid. There was total silence while I was saying my piece, which is normal, because the guys know when I am in that kind of mood people sit and listen until I’m finished. I have hardly ever been interrupted. The guys know I don’t chastise them for no reason.

I turned to the captain, Brian Lara. I told him he was too good a player to get starts and not carry it on and instead give it away. Normally when Brian’s set he’s extremely hard to get out. I told him to take more responsibility."

Curtly Ambrose. Sir Curtly Ambrose (pp. 208-209). Aurum Press. Kindle Edition.

 

[honestbharani]

People saying Steyn is in some league higher than Donald or easily better have lost their freaking minds. Again, the only blemish on Donald's record is the 31 he averaged vs Australia. Steyn was very good vs Australia and Sri lanka but was as bad vs England as Donald was vs Australia. And Donald bowled against far stronger batting lineups (especially vs India and Australia) than Steyn ever did.

Donald's record is as complete as any other atg fast bowler, past or present. Steyn was the last of the mohicans for what seemed like an eternity but that alone does not place him in some tier above Donald. No way would Donald get tonked around the way I've seen Steyn do on numerous occasions. I remember in '98, just before our famous 5 nil drubbing, philo Wallace and clayton Lambert had just decimated England at home. And all in the WI had thought, finally we'd found a useful pair to replace Greenidge/Haynes. Donald (with help from Pollock) quickly brought those two to heel. Not to mention Donald utterly dominated Lara. I've seen McGrath dominate Lara in Australia but inevitably, Lara would score at least one hundred. Nope, not with freaking Donald !! WAFG !!!!

ROFL if you think any of the Indian batting line ups Donald bowled to were in any way shape or form better than the ones Steyn faced at least till 2010 and I would wager even past that.

 

[ankitj]

Wish someone had planted a camera was Ambrose was chastising his team mates. WAFG.

 

[Slifer]

ROFL if you think any of the Indian batting line ups Donald bowled to were in any way shape or form better than the ones Steyn faced at least till 2010 and I would wager even past that.

I'll concede that your comment per India is correct. I would however, say that the Indian lineups of the late 90s were pretty decent. The point about the Australian lineups still stands though. Anyway, Steyn is NOT in some class above Donald; no fast bowler is. Not Marshall, not McGrath etc.

 

[cnerd123]

Pollock > Donald > Steyn in limited overs cricket
Steyn > Donald > Pollock in Tests

Donald overall

It's a very fair point that Steyn would go missing more often than Donald, and that Donald had more menace about his bowling. I cant, for example, recall a time off the top of my head where Steyn troubled a batting lineup with short pitched bowling.

Both should feature in a SA ATG XI, both in the reckoning for a spot in the ATG XI. Steyn not in contention for an ATG ODI XI and might not even make the SA ODI ATG XI.

 

[honestbharani]

I totally agree with *****'s take on Steyn in ODIs but for tests, again Steyn a level above Donald. I will post more and dig up more stats when the lil one lets me but to the point about short pitched bowling,I would refer you to Ian Gould's most recent interview on the best cricket he had seen - Sachin Vs Steyn. Check it out and tell me more about Steyn and short pitched bowling.

 

[pardus]

I'll concede that your comment per India is correct. I would however, say that the Indian lineups of the late 90s were pretty decent. The point about the Australian lineups still stands though. Anyway, Steyn is NOT in some class above Donald; no fast bowler is. Not Marshall, not McGrath etc.

Yeah, to call Steyn a level above Donald is a bit much. Although I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to pick Donald over Steyn in my ATG XI, I still think they are in the same league.

BTW, what really mess up Donald's stats vs Aus, are his final 2 series against them (played in Dec 2001 and Feb 2002), when he was pretty much past it. I think those were also the final two Test series of Donald's Test career.
Remove those 2 Test series, and Donald's stats against Aus almost mirror Steyn's (27.8 vs 27.4) despite Donald bowling to a vastly superior Aussie side.

I still can't imagine multiple batsmen having 300+ scores against Donald (or McGrath) in the 90s though. It just wasn't that easy.
Even batsmen like Tendulkar & Lara never really had a single great series against peak Donald in the 90s.

 

[Malcolm]

I totally agree with *****'s take on Steyn in ODIs but for tests, again Steyn a level above Donald.

In your opinion, what skill does Steyn possess that Donald doesn't, to make him a tier above Donald? Just curious.

 

[cnerd123]

I totally agree with *****'s take on Steyn in ODIs but for tests, again Steyn a level above Donald. I will post more and dig up more stats when the lil one lets me but to the point about short pitched bowling,I would refer you to Ian Gould's most recent interview on the best cricket he had seen - Sachin Vs Steyn. Check it out and tell me more about Steyn and short pitched bowling.

Steyn's got a good skiddy bouncer, but he rarely bases his spells around back of the length at high speed. He uses the short ball as a variation, whereas Donald could bowl entire spells around it.

I've seen the Sachin vs Steyn contests, the defining factor of that spell is his swing on a good length. That's the defining bit of most of his spells. Donald, on the other hand, has spells like the ones vs Atherton or the Waughs, built around pace at a short length

I could be wrong - it's not like I've watched the entirety of either their careers. Just a perception I've built up based on everything I've seen and read so far.

 

[honestbharani]

In your opinion, what skill does Steyn possess that Donald doesn't, to make him a tier above Donald? Just curious.

Reverse swing, yorkers, ability to change up to a higher pace for particular spells, also bowl longer spells, win matches in the SC.

 

[honestbharani]

Steyn's got a good skiddy bouncer, but he rarely bases his spells around back of the length at high speed. He uses the short ball as a variation, whereas Donald could bowl entire spells around it.

I've seen the Sachin vs Steyn contests, the defining factor of that spell is his swing on a good length. That's the defining bit of most of his spells. Donald, on the other hand, has spells like the ones vs Atherton or the Waughs, built around pace at a short length

I could be wrong - it's not like I've watched the entirety of either their careers. Just a perception I've built up based on everything I've seen and read so far.

If the ultimate aim for a bowler is to get a batsman out, why does the percentage of any type of bowling matter?

 

[cnerd123]

In your opinion, what skill does Steyn possess that Donald doesn't, to make him a tier above Donald? Just curious.

the only thing Steyn has on Donald is that, IMO, he bowls a more unplayable wicket-taking deliveries. This ties into what I mentioned earlier - I think it's a result of him being more willing to bowl it full and look for swing. He's quite a bit like Wasim and Waqar that way, or guys like Bond, Anderson, Boult, etc. Donald is more well rounded, and when he bowls an unplayable delivery it's more often too short to result in a wicket.

 

[honestbharani]

the only thing Steyn has on Donald is that, IMO, he bowls a more unplayable wicket-taking deliveries. This ties into what I mentioned earlier - I think it's a result of him being more willing to bowl it full and look for swing. He's quite a bit like Wasim and Waqar that way, or guys like Bond, Anderson, Boult, etc. Donald is more well rounded, and when he bowls an unplayable delivery it's more often too short to result in a wicket.

I don't quite understand this. I just think Steyn has more arrows in his quiver than Donald ever did.

 

[stephen]

Well both Steyn and Donald would be the first two bowlers picked in an SA XI. I think their skill sets would compliment each other very well.

 

[pardus]

Steyn's got a good skiddy bouncer, but he rarely bases his spells around back of the length at high speed. He uses the short ball as a variation, whereas Donald could bowl entire spells around it.

I've seen the Sachin vs Steyn contests, the defining factor of that spell is his swing on a good length. That's the defining bit of most of his spells. Donald, on the other hand, has spells like the ones vs Atherton or the Waughs, built around pace at a short length

I could be wrong - it's not like I've watched the entirety of either their careers. Just a perception I've built up based on everything I've seen and read so far.

Donald also had legendary spells against Tendulkar & Lara. His below delivery to Tendulkar in 1996-97 was pretty much the stuff of legends.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79Ji-I3LvYg

 

[cnerd123]

If the ultimate aim for a bowler is to get a batsman out, why does the percentage of any type of bowling matter?

It matters when you consider the balance of an attack. You don't want three quick bowlers that all have the same modus operandi. I think this is partly why the Philander/Steyn combo had some incredibly good days, but also incredibly bad ones. They needed a Morne Morkel or someone similar to round off the attack in all conditions.

A guy like Donald, IMO, had less bad days than Steyn because he could always resort to bouncing a batsman out when pitching it full and swinging it wasn't working.

They both had all the tools in the box. Donald was a better ODI bowler partly because of bowling in an era better suited to a fast bowler (modern day ODI cricket is a nightmare), but I think also because he just used his tools better. If there is any criticism of Steyn it would be that his bad days were worse, and that's probably down to him not using his other tools as effectively when Plan A B and C didn't work.

 

[honestbharani]

It matters when you consider the balance of an attack. You don't want three quick bowlers that all have the same modus operandi. I think this is partly why the Philander/Steyn combo had some incredibly good days, but also incredibly bad ones. They needed a Morne Morkel or someone similar to round off the attack in all conditions.

A guy like Donald, IMO, had less bad days than Steyn because he could always resort to bouncing a batsman out when pitching it full and swinging it wasn't working.

They both had all the tools in the box. Donald was a better ODI bowler partly because of bowling in an era better suited to a fast bowler (modern day ODI cricket is a nightmare), but I think also because he just used his tools better. If there is any criticism of Steyn it would be that his bad days were worse, and that's probably down to him not using his other tools as effectively when Plan A B and C didn't work.

Well, for starters, Donald bowled in the much more bowler friendly 90s while Steyn was bowling in the most batsman friendly era in my time of watching cricket - the 00s. He clearly had to bowl a lot more on tracks that were designed to "last 5 days" than Donald ever had to.

And regarding the balance of the attack, it is much more about the support you had. Donald had De Villiers, Pollock, McMillan, Klusener and Symcox for the most part, with the odd Brett Schultz test thrown in there. Steyn had a lot of games where he had to carry the attack. Morkel and Steyn were the most frequent partners and it made sense Steyn did not overdo the bouncer thing but it does not mean he did not have a good bouncer or use it when needed. The argument carries merit if Steyn never bowled a bouncer but once you know he has bowled it enough times and well, then arguing about its frequency is pretty futile IMO as it has nothing to do with the skill of the bowler anymore and everything to do with the context of those individual spells.

And Dbnald was taken apart by Sachin, Azhar and Dravid (of all people) and all of this in his 1996 peak.

 

[cnerd123]

Reverse swing, yorkers, ability to change up to a higher pace for particular spells, also bowl longer spells, win matches in the SC.

the only thing on that list that I can't recall having read/seen Donald do is to bowl at a slower speed for a spell, either to extract swing or to bowl dry for an extended time.

Which again, is just what I'm saying - Steyn's main wickets were pace and swing, and he's a better pick in swinging conditions, and is more likely to take 5 wickets for **** all to win you a game in any set of conditions. However, Donald is more likely to break open a game for you, and can bounce great batsmen out.

I do rank Steyn above Donald overall in Tests, but the gap between them is narrower than it is in ODIs, where Donald is superior by a slightly larger margin. So I vote for Donald as the better bowler overall, Steyn the better bowl for Tests. Both get into the SA ATG XI, and are competing for different roles in a Test ATG XI