CW's Ranking of Pace Bowlers (Tests)

[kyear2]

Sure, I agree there's no way to prove it since there will always be cases that prove otherwise as well. I think that most people do agree that when you have good bowling support and batting support, it does make it easier. If you don't believe that, then that's fair enough. True, Lara wasn't really hindered that much but I feel he could have achieved even more with a better team. i know that's controversial though. Sometimes when I watch Root when the batting lineup is collapsing, it feels like he decides to take risks to get more runs on the board before the team gets bowled instead of building proper test innings. If he was selfish enough to stay not out till the end of the innings, then sure I would agree it doesn't affect him. And then he also comes in at 10-2 every innings, which pretty much makes him an opener which most people consider harder than coming out when there's a solid total on the board. Obviously none of this could be true because as you said there's' no way to prove it. That said, I don't make ridiculous adjustments like PFK does when adjusting Akram's bowling average to 18 due to his fielding. But I do give a very tiny boost which I believe is fair to do.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Sure, I agree there's no way to prove it since there will always be cases that prove otherwise as well. I think that most people do agree that when you have good bowling support and batting support, it does make it easier. If you don't believe that, then that's fair enough. True, Lara wasn't really hindered that much but I feel he could have achieved even more with a better team. i know that's controversial though. Sometimes when I watch Root when the batting lineup is collapsing, it feels like he decides to take risks to get more runs on the board before the team gets bowled instead of building proper test innings. If he was selfish enough to stay not out till the end of the innings, then sure I would agree it doesn't affect him. And then he also comes in at 10-2 every innings, which pretty much makes him an opener which most people consider harder than coming out when there's a solid total on the board. Obviously none of this could be true because as you said there's' no way to prove it. That said, I don't make ridiculous adjustments like PFK does when adjusting Akram's bowling average to 18 due to his fielding. But I do give a very tiny boost which I believe is fair to do.

Its not me who started 18 avg thing.. Someone else brought that number to mock the fielding strength argument.. Iirc.

 

[Line and Length]

Lillee

 

[ataraxia]

Trueman

 

[subshakerz]

Just your opinion though. Going by pure bowling averages, Garner was ahead of Akram by the same percentage as Hayden was ahead of Langer in batting average.

Though there are other things to be considered, when there is statistically a good gap, you can't just go with peer reputation and place the statistically inferior players a tier above the ones with clearly better records.

I was replying to a comment that suggested that Donald and Garner had Wasim-Lillee-Trueman levels of peer rating which objectively they dont. Donald was never near McGrath Wasim Ambrose or Garner near Lillee Marshall Hadlee Imran when players discussed the best they faced.

I do view records as important but I see them going hand in hand with peer rating in assessing a bowler. A great record in isolation means something was missing that the numbers couldnt capture.

And I dont mind placing bowlers with slightly inferior stats ahead if the entire cricket fraternity of the time were agreed they were superior. Garner and Donald are on the lower end of the peer rating for me to put them as locks for the top 10.

 

[kyear2]

I was replying to a comment that suggested that Donald and Garner had Wasim-Lillee-Trueman levels of peer rating which objectively they dont. Donald was never near McGrath Wasim Ambrose or Garner near Lillee Marshall Hadlee Imran when players discussed the best they faced.

I do view records as important but I see them going hand in hand with peer rating in assessing a bowler. A great record in isolation means something was missing that the numbers couldnt capture.

And I dont mind placing bowlers with slightly inferior stats ahead if the entire cricket fraternity of the time were agreed they were superior. Garner and Donald are on the lower end of the peer rating for me to put them as locks for the top 10.

Garner was never a no. 1. He was always 2nd fiddle to either Marshall or Holding.

Donald, he was from the new team on the block? I don't know, his perceived lack of quality performances vs Australia?

But I had seen a decent amount of him and I never thought anything was missing, but from memory he did perform pretty decently against us.

 

[subshakerz]

Garner was never a no. 1. He was always 2nd fiddle to either Marshall or Holding.

Donald, he was from the new team on the block? I don't know, his perceived lack of quality performances vs Australia?

But I had seen a decent amount of him and I never thought anything was missing, but from memory he did perform pretty decently against us.

Garner was actually behind Marshall, Holding and Roberts when it came to peer rating though he had the best average.

Donald as I have mentioned lacked memorable overseas performances that I think may give an impression of him as a fair-weather bowler. And that 96/97 series Australia series in SA dented his reputation for them.

 

[gftw]

Lillee - 9
Wasim - 4
Donald - 2
Garner - 1
Trueman - 1

The List
1. Malcolm Marshall
2. Glenn Mcgrath
3. Richard Hadlee
4. Curtly Ambrose
5. Dale Steyn
6. Imran Khan
7. Dennis Lillee

The vote for the #8 test pace bowler of all-time begins now.

 

[subshakerz]

The list is going pretty much as expected.

I vote for Akram.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Trueman

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Trueman

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Trueman

 

[Line and Length]

Trueman

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Akram

 

[ataraxia]

Trueman

 

[OverratedSanity]

Wasim Akram

 

[HookShot]

Wasim Akram

 

[Bolo.]

Trueman

 

[honestbharani]

Wasim Akram

 

[Slifer]

Akram.