CW Top 50 Cricketers of All Time - 2nd Edition

[kyear2]

Which is what I was trying to say. As I told Smali the first example was the most impressive, the others not as much, but I never meant to say he wasn't a great player, one of the greatest ever really.

 

[smash84]

As for excuses like "he was a front line bowler because the WI didn't have options" or "there weren't 12 innings in 6 Tests" - those are irrelevant because they show that Sobers had a double burden which Imran never managed to properly conquer (note that by never I mean one series in 21)

....when I show that the burden was conquered that isn't deemed "batting enough".....lol.....

 

[marc71178]

No, because batting 5 times in a 6 Test series is not a big batting burden - how ****ing hard is that to understand?

 

[smash84]

No, because batting 5 times in a 6 Test series is not a big batting burden - how ****ing hard is that to understand?

yes sir, please define some more subjective milestones in order to come up with a big batting burden

 

[Jono]

My point is that he rarely performed as an allrounder, which when you compare it to all his rivals (as I did in the post I linked to) - it was either batting or bowling. For that reason I don't consider him as good as some of the others named. I definitely don't consider him anywhere near as good as Sobers.

Sure, and I'm not having a say in the Imran vs. Botham/Sobers debate.

Just making sure you still acknowledge he's an allrounder. Happy to accept that someone who performs at a similar period with bat and ball compared to someone who performed with a bat for a bit, then ball for a bit (or vice versa) is more of an allrounder. But you don't have to be able to perform in the same game (or even a string of games) to be considered an allrounder.

If player A scores runs but does very little with the ball in a 3 test series, and then in the next 3 test series scores few runs but takes many wickets, he's an allrounder. He may be of less value than the allrounder that scored runs and took wickets in both series, but he's still an allrounder.

 

[marc71178]

Yes, he's an allrounder, but he's nowhere near as good an allrounder as his fans like to make out because of the not performing with both disciplines at the same time. The added effort required to score runs and take wickets at the same time is something that seems to be overlooked by some people, mainly because it's something he couldn't do. One of the most misleading stats ever IMO is the cherrypicking of his later career.

 

[marc71178]

yes sir, please define some more subjective milestones in order to come up with a big batting burden

It wasn't me who even came up with it, but if you think someone who doesn't even bat in a game is having to face dual effort with bat and ball then you're pretty deluded.

 

[G.I.Joe]

If player A scores runs but does very little with the ball in a 3 test series, and then in the next 3 test series scores few runs but takes many wickets, he's an allrounder. He may be of less value than the allrounder that scored runs and took wickets in both series, but he's still an allrounder.

Can't imagine it does wonders for ensuring team balance. Is he going to show up as a batsman or bowler? Play the extra batsman or bowler to compensate?

 

[ankitj]

Some stats to chew on. I looked at how often an all-rounder is 'useful' with the bat AND ball, and also how often he is useful with the bat OR the ball.

Useful with the bat = scores 80 or more runs in the match
Useful with the ball = takes 4 or more wkts in the match

I generally believe that each wicket is worth 20 runs (most wickets by a bowler ~800, most runs ~16000). So those cut offs are equally fair for batting and bowling all-rounders

When sorted by how often they are useful with both, this is how the top all rounders stack up:

				[B]80 runs [U]AND[/U] 4 wkts[/B]
-----------------------------------------------
Player		Matches		#	%
-----------------------------------------------
Sobers		93		15	16.1%
Miller		55		6	10.9%
Botham		102		11	10.8%
Hadlee		86		6	7.0%
Imran		88		4	4.5%
Kallis		152		5	3.3%
Dev		131		4	3.1%
Pollock		108		3	2.8%

Sobers, Miller and Botham top the table. Kallis, Dev and Pollock are bottom three.

Next when you look at how often they are useful with either, you get:

				[B]80 runs [U]OR[/U] 4 wkts[/B]
-----------------------------------------------
Player		Matches		#	%
-----------------------------------------------
Hadlee		86		62	72.1%
Imran		88		56	63.6%
Sobers		93		56	60.2%
Botham		102		58	56.9%
Pollock		108		61	56.5%
Kallis		152		76	50.0%
Dev		131		61	46.6%
Miller		55		25	45.5%

Hadlee, Imran and Sobers are at top! Kallis, Dev and Miller are at bottom.

Well, just tell us what we probably already know

 

[ankitj]

Spreadsheet if you want to play with it. You can modify the cut offs too.

 

[smash84]

good work Ankit....

the debate was veering towards this in this thread

 

[weldone]

If player A scores runs but does very little with the ball in a 3 test series, and then in the next 3 test series scores few runs but takes many wickets, he's an allrounder. He may be of less value than the allrounder that scored runs and took wickets in both series, but he's still an allrounder.

But is he of less value compared to the player who scored runs and took wickets in one series, and did nothing except eating lunch in the next?

 

[ankitj]

Depends on the type of lunch tbf.

 

[weldone]

How about doing nothing except eating lunch for 10 years?

 

[silentstriker]

There's too much salad in that salad.

 

[Fusion]

So we’re down to the Final Five. Predictions about order? I know that Smali said that it was still undetermined who’ll take the number one spot during the final days of counting. However, I’m going to assume that Bradman was able to pull ahead of Sobers in the end. Therefore, my prediction is they’ll finish in the following order:

Bradman
Sobers
Imran (will benefit from higher rankings from fans that didn’t participate last time)
Tendulkar
Warne

 

[silentstriker]

Bradman
Sobers
Imran
Warne
Tendulkar

 

[kyear2]

+1
Think that this is how it will play out.

 

[ankitj]

Ikki will freak out if Tendulkar is above Warne. So that will be nice

 

[kyear2]

Lol. I think I might too.