Criticising Tendulkar the in thing

[sohummisra]

My final take on the Tendulkar issue is if he wants to recover the title of being the best (or even one of the best) modern-day batsman, he has to revoke back to his previous style. There is no doubt that Tendulkar's form and performance has decayed over the last few years, and that is certainly grounds for criticism, given that most people still expect him to fulfil the same role he did over his peak years.

The problem is that his contemporaries and the ones we wish to compare him with (the Pontings and Pietersens) are in their prime now and he is over the hill, so to speak. While he is settling down as an accumulator of runs, his contemporaries are thrashing the bowling around. This is a bitter pill to swallow for Indian fans and I definitely find the criticism he has taken understandable.

I was of the opinion that such criticism was exaggerated over the last few years but the last few months have gone quite a ways in changing my opinion. I think unless Tendulkar shows that he still has something special to offer for Indian cricket this upcoming season, the BCCI will start pointing subtly at the door.

 

[sohummisra]

I don't know about that. It is possible that he could have averaged lower if he had opened, but for most of his tenure, opening has been a weak position in the Indian Test team and it usually does not take long for our middle order to be exposed. He could have provided more stability up front, and even if he did slightly worse, the team might have been better off as the middle order would have had more solid starts.

Of course, this is all conjecture, and that bridge has been burned now. Right now, he has to find his Test form, and quickly too. I have been a very vocal supporter of him, but England tour IMO is his last chance to show that he belongs in the Test side.

Of course, this is purely hypothetical, but I never had the assurance with Tendulkar as a test opener, from watching his batting. Also, given that Tendulkar had settled in so comfortably to the lower/middle order during the first few years of his career, I don't think anyone would have wanted to risk sending him to open. Also, Tendulkar's strokeplay was always something that separated him from the others in his team and maybe in cricket. He may actually make a good opener now, but this late in his career it is a risk I wouldn't want to take.

 

[Sanz]

The serious answer would be, I cannot really answer that question given no context. What if we were chasing 250 in 50 overs and Tendulkar scored a 240 ball 120? I would not take that!

Context was similar to the situation in Bangladesh. Would you take 120 in 240 balls in the first/second Innings of a test match when time is not a constraint i.e. you have ample time to bowl an opposition out ?

 

[sohummisra]

Context was similar to the situation in Bangladesh. Would you take 120 in 240 balls in the first/second Innings of a test match when time is not a constraint i.e. you have ample time to bowl an opposition out ?

Not against Bangladesh. And not if he came in at 200-odd for no loss. I would expect a lesser batsman to score at that rate, but a Tendulkar to score at a SR of at least 60-65 given that situation and that team. Against England, again, I would have to look at the context in every game. If he came in at 20/2 I would certainly take a 200 ball and maybe even a 300 ball hundred! But not if he came in with the bowler's demoralized and clearly defensive.

 

[Sanz]

Not against Bangladesh. And not if he came in at 200-odd for no loss. I would expect a lesser batsman to score at that rate, but a Tendulkar to score at a SR of at least 60-65 given that situation and that team. Against England, again, I would have to look at the context in every game. If he came in at 20/2 I would certainly take a 200 ball and maybe even a 300 ball hundred! But not if he came in with the bowler's demoralized and clearly defensive.

Why not ? Bangladesh have shown that they have improved and also that if you take them lightly, you might eny up regretting it. Would you like it If we were to the first country(other than Zimbabwe) to lose a test against Bangladesh ?Besides 200/0 is not a very good score at least not good enough to start taking unnecessary risk in order to up the strike rate. It just takes two deliveries to go from 200/0 to 200/2. I would rather have our batsmen play until we reach 500 before being too aggressive.

This is a very unfair critcism of Tendulkar, Considering that Ricky Ponting, who some people think that scores quickly, had a strike rate of 50 in his last series against BD compared to Tendulkar's 57.

Lastly in England, I would be happy if Tendulkar scores @ a strike rate of 55-60 and scores well. I would also be happy with a strike rate around 55 even if he came into bat @ 300/2 in the first inning of a test match.

 

[Anil]

Cricinfo came up with this article lashing on Tendulkar. WTF. Give the man a break! The opponents were Bangladesh but he did not exactly perform poorly.

season 2007 2 3 1 254 122* 101 31 127.00 2 0 0

so what? can't(or at least shouldn't) mean all that much for someone who had already scored 35 test centuries....let him do 1/2 or 2/3rd as well against a good english or south african or australian attack on their pitches and that would mean something...as for giving him breaks, he has been getting plenty especially in the past couple of years...

 

[Jono]

I think the point is, why in the hell criticise him for tonning up?

He was pretty much lose/lose. If he fails against Bangladesh, the snipers will be out (and justified tbh), but if he scores centuries, yet not in the dominant fashion as he used to, he's also criticised.

These criticisms of him should have waited till England if they believe he's definitely going to fail there. The timing was just stupid.

I don't think anyone is saying don't criticise Tendulkar, everyone has had their fair share in recent times. But at least get your timing right.

I bet if he scored a run a ball 60 then holed out he would have been criticised for "not going on with it" as well.

Pretty much all he could do was score a century, and score it damn fast, otherwise he was a goner. What's the point?

 

[Richard]

^^^^^^^^Think you've probably summed it up best of all, TBH. Was gonna write another paragraph but then realised you'd said everything I was thinking of writing.

 

[Fiery]

^^^^^^^^Think you've probably summed it up best of all, TBH. Was gonna write another paragraph but then realised you'd said everything I was thinking of writing.

mmm seems to contrast with some of your previous thoughts on Tendulkar though tbh Rich

 

[Richard]

Does it? Like what?

 

[Fiery]

Does it? Like what?

Would have to go digging but I'm sure you've made efforts to point out his poor form since 2002 (or whenever) on numerous occasions, which is fairly direct criticism

 

[Richard]

Well yeah, I have, and I have felt throughout that he was in poor form in said time, but I don't think Jono was saying otherwise there.

I have also, don't forget, said he looked better in his most recent Test series than he has done since November 2002.

 

[Fiery]

Well yeah, I have, and I have felt throughout that he was in poor form in said time, but I don't think Jono was saying otherwise there.

I have also, don't forget, said he looked better in his most recent Test series than he has done since November 2002.

ok mate

 

[honestbharani]

It is not as if when he is coming to bat at number four, he is showing as if he is pooing in his pants. If he has agreed to bat at a particular position, I have no reason to question his committment on it. About what he says - he is one of the best behaved people out there who carries himself very well. Except that outburst against Chappell, which I felt he could have done without, don't see much wrong the way he projects himself.




As have said, Tendulkar fanatics exist. That isn't that important. I find fans, friends of mine criticising him various things which can be extreme criticisms. So it isn't that it is just in the media. Fans do it too. You cannot contradict the point I was making by bringing up Tendulkar fanatics.

To be honest, I never really wanted to contradict your point abt. criticizing Tendulkar being the in thing. Even in my first post, I mentioned abt it. He is so popular that ppl are always going to criticize him. Mostly they are in the wrong, but sometimes they can be right to an extent.

And about Sachin's behaviour, it is difficult to explain it here, but the sort of mad support he has in India, even the slightest hint of displeasure sparks off things here. I actually think it is pretty unreasonable to expect anyone to be without flaws and I don't mind Sachin's flaw on this that much, except that I think it would be better if he didn't always mention abt this love for opening everytime he is asked to bat at 4. It is one thing to mention where you love to bat but another when a guy asks you "do u enjoy batting at 4?" and he says "opening is my favorite position and that is where I love to bat but because of the team situation, I am batting at 4 and I am taking it as a challenge". It may be the honest answer, but with the sort of adulation and fan following that Sachin has in India, it is not the best answer. Something like Dhoni's "I am comfortable batting wherever the team needs me to bat" can do so much in those instances. Now I am obviously not being verbatim with these words, but that is how their answers to these questions generally go. As much as I hate to say this, there are still people in India for whom a SAchin century and watching Sachin bat for long matters more than India winning, esp. in south India. And it is those guys who cause problems when Sachin comes up with statements like that.


To be fair to Sachin, that sort of a thing may not initiate anything in say England or Australia, so I think a good part of the blame can be laid on the media and the Sachin fanatics for whom Sachin is more important than the Indian cricket team. So plz don't take it that I am singling out Sachin on this issue.


And again, for the last time, I was listing the faults of the Indian team in that post which Pratyush brought up in the opening post of this thread. I had mentioned about everyone else's faults (IMHO, obviously) in that post too. It was not meant to be and it most certainly isn't a criticism of just Sachin.

 

[Anil]

I think the point is, why in the hell criticise him for tonning up?

He was pretty much lose/lose. If he fails against Bangladesh, the snipers will be out (and justified tbh), but if he scores centuries, yet not in the dominant fashion as he used to, he's also criticised.

These criticisms of him should have waited till England if they believe he's definitely going to fail there. The timing was just stupid.

the article gave the reasons why he was criticized...it was not for scoring the centuries, it was for the way he batted and the way he scored his runs...and considering the opposition and the position the team was in, that is something that cannot be just brushed away....he might or might not build on these tons and play well against better opposition, but that remains to be seen and until we actually do, there is room for valid criticism given his recent form and his results against good attacks...

I don't think anyone is saying don't criticise Tendulkar, everyone has had their fair share in recent times. But at least get your timing right.

ganguly hit a laborious ton against zimbabwe just before the infamous scrap with chappell and his subsequent ouster from the team, he copped a lot of flak for that innings although it was a century, don't know how you felt about that at the time, i felt it was justified, despite the three-figure mark, it showed his significant lack of touch....now this was not 1/3rd as bad as that innings, was against a slightly better attack(although on a dead wicket) and i am not saying tendulkar should be danger of losing his place after tonning up, but if someone analyzes his innings and offers some criticism, that doesn't automatically mean it is completely stupid and untimely and invalid....

I bet if he scored a run a ball 60 then holed out he would have been criticised for "not going on with it" as well.

we can talk about a lot of hypotheticals, this particular one just didn't happen, that's the fact....

 

[honestbharani]

I think the point is, why in the hell criticise him for tonning up?

He was pretty much lose/lose. If he fails against Bangladesh, the snipers will be out (and justified tbh), but if he scores centuries, yet not in the dominant fashion as he used to, he's also criticised.

These criticisms of him should have waited till England if they believe he's definitely going to fail there. The timing was just stupid.

I don't think anyone is saying don't criticise Tendulkar, everyone has had their fair share in recent times. But at least get your timing right.

I bet if he scored a run a ball 60 then holed out he would have been criticised for "not going on with it" as well.

Pretty much all he could do was score a century, and score it damn fast, otherwise he was a goner. What's the point?

I read that article on cricinfo long back and so I have basically forgotten abt what century it was being discussed but if u had watched the match (the second test), it was obvious that Sachin was intent on getting his hundred and then remaining not out. If ever a player batted for the star after his score, Sachin did so in that last inning. NOt that there was any impact as he had Dhoni at the other end anyway, but it was obvious that he was always looking to tuck runs in risk free ways. I never thought there was anything too wrong with it and that is why I never really commented on this, but I think it is fair enough if people are wondering "if he can't take risks and score quickly when the team is looking for a declaration against Bangladesh on a belter, how can he do it against England or Australia on their home turf?". Although the timing of the article was strange, it was kinda strange that Sachin never even showed any inclination to hurry when all the other batsmen did.

 

[Anil]

I read that article on cricinfo long back and so I have basically forgotten abt what century it was being discussed but if u had watched the match (the second test), it was obvious that Sachin was intent on getting his hundred and then remaining not out. If ever a player batted for the star after his score, Sachin did so in that last inning. NOt that there was any impact as he had Dhoni at the other end anyway, but it was obvious that he was always looking to tuck runs in risk free ways. I never thought there was anything too wrong with it and that is why I never really commented on this, but I think it is fair enough if people are wondering "if he can't take risks and score quickly when the team is looking for a declaration against Bangladesh on a belter, how can he do it against England or Australia on their home turf?". Although the timing of the article was strange, it was kinda strange that Sachin never even showed any inclination to hurry when all the other batsmen did.

i don't really see it as strange, just because something is not usual practice doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't valid, i would say it was a pretty brave article because of the timing and since it was criticizing him....

 

[Dasa]

Ha, I've already said everything I need to say about that article in the other thread. I'll just add that there's nothing brave about taking cheap shots. Criticism is fine, but much of that article was beyond that.

 

[Anil]

Ha, I've already said everything I need to say about that article in the other thread. I'll just add that there's nothing brave about taking cheap shots. Criticism is fine, but much of that article was beyond that.

why is it cheap? because it is about tendulkar? he was analyzing one of his innings and making some critical points, no one has really countered any of the points to any depth, it's mostly been "how dare he say all that!" "he's just made a century, what stupid timing!" "leave him alone!" "give him a break!" "think of what he has done for the past 16 odd years!!!" criticism is not fine for a lot of his fans, that is the crux of the problem....

 

[Jono]

I think its unfair to compare some of the people criticising the article here to more fanatic Sachin fans who are unwilling to accept criticism of him. For mine I think we've proven to be more balanced and far from worshippers of him, regardless of what he does. I'm not going to shy away that he's probably my favourite cricketer, and I imagine Dasa is in the same boat, but I'd worry about how we're perceived as cricket posters if we were juxtaposed to the more stereotypical fans who defend Sachin at all costs.

Had Tendulkar failed in Bangladesh, I would have definitely come out and stated that his position in the test team was in jeapordy. I have also harshly criticised Tendulkar for a) a specific dismissal in the 2nd test vs. SA in SA, where I think he went a long way to hurting the team by, ironically, trying to play too aggressively, and b) his innings in the 3rd test (2nd innings), along with Dravid, which IMO cost India any chance of victory, and consequently we lost the match and the series.

But in this case, I just do not accept the criticism. That Bangladesh series, whether people want to admit it or not (and I am a Bangladeshi fan mind you, I wear a Bangladesh cricket shirt whilst playing indoor cricket ) was nothing more than a chance for India, and hence the players within the team (in particular Tendulkar and Ganguly) to get some form back, get some confidence and through doing this, win the test series.