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Cricketweb's 5 most unfairly treated players
- Thread starter Zinzan
- Start date
Athlai
Not Terrible
Dilshan and Oram at their best are far superior ODI players, Tuffey too has mostly made his name in the shorter form.Waugh, Gayle and Astle were all about equally good in either form. Gayle and Astle being two of their countries best Test batsman and IIRC averaging more in that form. Flintoff 05 might a not big enough example but his ODI record is hardly that great either? Bond did fine in the Tests he played.
Harby is a good Test bowler. Vettori is one of our best Test batsman of this decade, and up there in terms of bowling as well.
Probably. People seem to forget that his debut series in Aus Warne and McGrath both averaged around 70 I believe.
NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Yup, spot on. Warne 6 @ 71.66 and McGrath 5 @ 65.40
Debuted in a rain affected match as well at Hobart, only bowling in one innings. Went for quite a bit of tap, but so did everyone else who bowled (for NZ).
In Perth he got a bit of tap again taking 1 for 74 and 1 for 80 from 18 and 21 overs respectively, but his wickets were absolutely worth their weight in gold; Hayden for a second-ball duck in the first dig and Langer for a duck in the second, at a time when that combination were notching up 200+ opening partnerships all over the shop.
On the surface his debut series figures don't flatter, but we saw quite soon afterwards just how good he is.
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Uppercut
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Flintoff's ODI record is very much "that great" tbh.
Waugh, Gayle and Astle were all about equally good in either form. Gayle and Astle being two of their countries best Test batsman and IIRC averaging more in that form. Flintoff 05 might a not big enough example but his ODI record is hardly that great either? Bond did fine in the Tests he played.
Harby is a good Test bowler. Vettori is one of our best Test batsman of this decade, and up there in terms of bowling as well.
Also, the gap between Vettori in ODIs and Vettori in tests is unspeakably huge.
four_or_six
Cricketer Of The Year
If the point is 'Lara was a better test batsman then ODI batsman' then it seems a fair argument, though he was so good at both I wouldn't go too far with it. But if the point is that it can be proven from saying things like that the two forms of the game can't really be compared, then that seems crazy to me. I mean, Brian Lara is one of the highest run scorers ever in ODI cricket, and has over 10000 runs, averages 40, and has a strike rate of 80. It's unlikely that he's not using vastly the same skills, natural talent, and temperament in both forms of the game.
Athlai
Not Terrible
Actually thought Flintoff's figures were a little worse than they actually are, but I'd still maintain that he is a good Test player.
Vettori is a Test allrounder and an ODI bowler.
Since 04 Vettori has been immense with the bat for NZ.
05- 381 @ 63.5
06- 387 @ 35.2
07- 78 @ 39
08- 672 @ 35.4
09- 492 @ 61.5
And despite how fantastic Vettori is at ODI's 251 @ 31.90 with the ball and an average of 16 with the bat just doesn't outweigh a Test career of 303W @ 33.51 and an average of 29.59 with the bat that only appears to be going up. Vettori might be the best ODI spinner in the world and rather further from that position in Test cricket, but he is one of the best Test allrounders in the world.
Uppercut
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No, I think the difference (in his bowling, anyway) is absolutely massive. He's a threat to every batting lineup in the world in ODIs, whereas in tests, he's only realllly a threat to poor players of spin. His record takes an absolutely massive hit if you exclude Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.
He's one of the best all-rounders in the world in that there aren't many others.
He's one of the best all-rounders in the world in that there aren't many others.
Athlai
Not Terrible
Na, still one of the best spin bowlers in the world. His figures may not reflect it but that would be due to a few reasons, the biggest being that– he doesn't have much top quality support, he usually plays in the spinners paradise of New Zealand.
Would hardly say there are that many spin bowlers better than him in Test match cricket around the world.
Swann - no probably not
Herath - probably not
Shakib - maybe, but probably ot
Harris - no
Murali - despite him having declined quite a bit still yes
Harby - yes
Mendis - close, depends if he has been truly
Ajmal - maybe?
Kaneria - no
Hauritz - no
Would hardly say there are that many spin bowlers better than him in Test match cricket around the world.
Swann - no probably not
Herath - probably not
Shakib - maybe, but probably ot
Harris - no
Murali - despite him having declined quite a bit still yes
Harby - yes
Mendis - close, depends if he has been truly
Ajmal - maybe?
Kaneria - no
Hauritz - no
Howsie
International Captain
Maybe? Vettori's a far better bowler. Ajmal has done nothing in test cricket either, can't see how he's a maybe.
Athlai
Not Terrible
O'Keefe reckons Shakib could be better than Vettori in terms of an attacking spinner. Ajmal I know nothing about so I didn't want to make any assumptions.
Howsie
International Captain
He's taken 48 wickets, 13 of which came against the West Indies a few months back. He's averaging over 40 against Sri Lanka and I don't usually do this (but because he's played so few tests) if you take out his 6/99 against South Africa he averages over 40 against them also, his other six wickets come at 6/250 odd.
He's a promising player, but my god he's becoming fast overrated for bashing some very poor teams around.
Athlai
Not Terrible
Yeah his record doesn't reflect how talented he is though. Gets far more turn than Vettori and is a adept in his use of flight and pace variations. Shakib looks quite special.
Manee
Cricketer Of The Year
I don't understand why you'd remove his 6/99 though, if only to worsen his statistics.
Howsie
International Captain
Couldn't agree more, although probably not for the same reasons.
Howsie
International Captain
It's stupid (and like I said it's not something I'd usually do) but it was just to show that he'd only performed once in five innings against South Africa.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
That's why I asked if you understood what I was on about - clearly the answer is no. At no point was I suggesting that all players were "crap or not very good" at one form, merely much better in one form than the other.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Not if only Test-standard sides are considered it isn't. Bond has basically made a big difference to NZ in a Test series on a whole one occasion - his was a massive contribution to the win in West Indies in 2002. They'd have won against India in 2002/03 without him, and in 2006/07 and 2007/08 he hardly tore things up and NZ failed to win anything.