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Cricket's great all-rounders

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Needs more Charlie Macartney. And WG Grace. Macartney really isn't talked about enough, he's the most underrated cricketer ever, bar none IMO.

Grace | Macartney | Kallis | Sobers | Miller (c) | Faulkner | Gilchrist (+) | Rice | Imran | Procter | Hadlee | Botham (12th)
And I had never heard of Macartney before today. Thank you for that. Fantastic cricketer he seems to be. I think you may be right about him being ahead of Goddard and Barlow. I have always preferred attacking openers more, and Macartney seems to be one.
Macartney is criminally underrated as you said before rvd, I definitely agree all the way. He has been likened to Victor Trumper in terms of style and has a fantastic record overall, especially with standardised averages.
The Governor-General was a wonderful cricketer, but I'd stop short of calling him a great Test all-rounder - in fact his career statistical trends bear some similarities to that of the great Wilfred Rhodes - who I've discussed at length as a Test all-rounder here more than once before. Macartney was a frontline(ish) bowler early in his career when his batting was relatively poor, and by the time he became a great batsman after the First World War he did very little bowling.

To illustrate the point, Macartney took 24 wickets in his first eight Tests (11 of them coming in one match) - while averaging just 20 with the bat, but then just 21 more wickets in the 27 Tests which followed.

The story of Macartney the batsman is equally illuminating - prior to the War, when he did more bowling, he played 21 Tests, hit one century and averaged 26. After the war he played another 14 Tests, hit six centuries and averaged nearly 70! However those 14 post-war Tests yielded just 11 wickets - in four Tests Macartney didn't bowl at all, and in four more he bowled less than 10 overs.

I don't write this to denigrate a great cricketer, but I do think we have to be careful when placing him in such exalted all-round company as he is being placed here.

In fact, if you're looking for a magnificent but underrated Aussie all-rounder, then step forward Montague Alfred Noble. :)
 
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The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
For what it's worth, I reckon my Test (so no Grace, Hirst, Procter, Rice etc) All-Rounders XI would look something like:

Goddard
Mankad
Kallis
Sobers
Faulkner
Miller
Gilchrist
Botham
Noble
Imran
Hadlee

There are a handful of great players (Woolley, Benaud, Davidson, Greig, Pollock and the bloke I am most disappointed about leaving out - Kapil Dev) who could easily step in and claim one of those spots on another day, but I'd be more than happy if someone handed me this side.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Imran to lead that side of yours

I think the captaincy would be narrowed down to a final shortlist of three - Noble, Miller and Imran.

And I'd imagine Noble would end up as skipper by being the only bloke who'd actually show up for the interview, as Miller and Imran would be out on the pull with Sobers somewhere.
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
The Governor-General was a wonderful cricketer, but I'd stop short of calling him a great Test all-rounder - in fact his career statistical trends bear some similarities to that of the great Wilfred Rhodes - who I've discussed at length as a Test all-rounder here more than once before. Macartney was a frontline(ish) bowler early in his career when his batting was relatively poor, and by the time he became a great batsman after the First World War he did very little bowling.

To illustrate the point, Macartney took 24 wickets in his first eight Tests (11 of them coming in one match) - while averaging just 20 with the bat, but then just 21 more wickets in the 27 Tests which followed.

The story of Macartney the batsman is equally illuminating - prior to the War, when he did more bowling, he played 21 Tests, hit one century and averaged 26. After the war he played another 14 Tests, hit six centuries and averaged nearly 70! However those 14 post-war Tests yielded just 11 wickets - in four Tests Macartney didn't bowl at all, and in four more he bowled less than 10 overs.

I don't write this to denigrate a great cricketer, but I do think we have to be careful when placing him in such exalted all-round company as he is being placed here.

In fact, if you're looking for a magnificent but underrated Aussie all-rounder, then step forward Montague Alfred Noble. :)
Yeah, he was basically the Australian version of Rhodes. Post-war he was an absolutely incredible batsman.

In an all-rounder's XI, however, half of the side probably won't be bowling a whole lot. I don't remember who said it, but someone on here made a post saying that bowling all-rounders are like economies of scale, whereas batting all-rounders are diseconomies, as the more there are the less their bowling impacts things. When picking my Top 4, I primarily looked at the best batsmen who could also be classified as 'all-rounders', and even if he didn't perform as a batsman or bowler at the same time, he was still useful, at least, in the discipline that was his 'weaker' at that point in time.

To me, guys like Macartney and Rhodes count as all-rounders, since they had the ability to do both, but they just didn't do it at the same time.

Macartney the batsman was one of the best, and his bowling at that time didn't come into the equation a whole lot for me. A top 4 of Grace, Macartney, Kallis and Sobers is designed to get maximum runs on the board - I didn't worry too much about the bowling output.

Similarly, I selected the 3 best bowlers I could come up with who classify as all-rounders. Hence Hadlee, Khan and Procter. Throwing in Keith Miller, Aubrey Faulkner and Clive Rice gives me a middle-order spin option, so I don't have to overload Sobers or use Macartney as a bowler, Rice acts as a fourth seamer and Miller plays as a shock bowler who primarily bats.

Botham, IMO, was the next cab off the rank in both areas, as such I selected him as 12th man.

And Monty Noble is incredibly underrated. Fantastic player. If I replace Rice with him, and remove WG to make a test-exclusive XI, you get:

C Macartney | W Rhodes | J Kallis | G Sobers | K Miller | A Faulkner | A Gilchrist | M Noble | I Khan | M Procter | R Hadlee

Botham and Gregory to round out the 13-man squad.

Rhodes, like Macartney, just classifies as an 'all-rounder' to me (given he could do both, but not necessarily simultaneously), but is picked as a batsman, basically.

Reverse the batting order, and that would probably be the bowling order, IMO.

Smali: Miller still captaining :p
 

Jager

International Debutant
Also rvd, Macartney opened 8 times in total but spent 20 innings at 3 (and averaged 59.34 there with 6 centuries and 6 fifties). It doesn't make much of a difference obviously, but personally I'd have him at 3, Kallis at 4 and Sobers at 5.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
I think the captaincy would be narrowed down to a final shortlist of three - Noble, Miller and Imran.

And I'd imagine Noble would end up as skipper by being the only bloke who'd actually show up for the interview, as Miller and Imran would be out on the pull with Sobers somewhere.
:laugh:

.

Smali: Miller still captaining :p
This damned Aussie lobby will not make decisions on merit :ph34r:

. Miller to captain yes :p
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
Also rvd, Macartney opened 8 times in total but spent 20 innings at 3 (and averaged 59.34 there with 6 centuries and 6 fifties). It doesn't make much of a difference obviously, but personally I'd have him at 3, Kallis at 4 and Sobers at 5.
That was the order I wanted, but i didn't want to drop Faulkner or a bowler, but could get away with no Barlow or Goddard. would prefer him at 3.
 

ankitj

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Monty Noble is good but no way can be picked at the expense of Shaun Pollock or even Alan Davidson.
 

watson

Banned
Noble was good enough to bat consistently in the top 6. Pollock and Davidson were not.

It depends on what you want from your team.
 

weeman27bob

International Vice-Captain
I think the captaincy would be narrowed down to a final shortlist of three - Noble, Miller and Imran.

And I'd imagine Noble would end up as skipper by being the only bloke who'd actually show up for the interview, as Miller and Imran would be out on the pull with Sobers somewhere.
That'd be quite the threesome.
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
Noble was good enough to bat consistently in the top 6. Pollock and Davidson were not.

It depends on what you want from your team.
This. Pollock was close to my side, but Davidson was more a bowler who could bat in my book.
 

Redsok

Cricket Spectator
I'm new here, so forgive me if this has been done, but I was reading the Shaun Pollock thread and thought it'd be interesting to discuss the merits of history's all-rounders.

Who do you think are the greatest, and who were of most value to their team. I'll begin by naming some off the top of my head, and you can add those I forget.

Complete All Rounders (who would be selected as either a batsman or bowler in their side)

Keith Miller
Imran Khan
Ian Botham
Kapil Dev

Bowling All Rounders (may or may not be selected in their side as only a batsman)

Richard Hadlee
Shaun Pollock
Wasim Akram
Richie Benaud

Batting All Rounders (may or may not be selected in their side as only a bowler)

Garry Sobers
Jaques Kallis
Steve Waugh



You sound like a millennial who just GOOGLED some nonsense, then came up with a conclusion..


Imran Khan would have NEVER been selected as a batsman, on any team. His batting only improved in the last half of his career, when his bowling started to decline a bit.

Kapil Dev is even worse. He was literally a bowler, who could hit big late down the order. Like the OG Andrew Flintoff kind of player. But Kapil was a great leader. Same as Imran..


Some of you lot really don't know ya history, eh? Don't believe horseshit, and stay delusional. That's embarrassing
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
You sound like a millennial who just GOOGLED some nonsense, then came up with a conclusion..


Imran Khan would have NEVER been selected as a batsman, on any team. His batting only improved in the last half of his career, when his bowling started to decline a bit.

Kapil Dev is even worse. He was literally a bowler, who could hit big late down the order. Like the OG Andrew Flintoff kind of player. But Kapil was a great leader. Same as Imran..


Some of you lot really don't know ya history, eh? Don't believe horse****, and stay delusional. That's embarrassing
You seem like fun. I like your attitude considering you have just joined the forum. I estimate you'll be banned within about 4 days, but it'll be good while it lasts.

You might want to be careful before embarrassing yourself. Imran batted at positions 4,5,6 combined 28 times and averaged close to 60 in those positions, so to say he "would have NEVER been selected as a batsman, on any team" is patently ridiculous, when he VERY successfully batted in those positions normally occupied exclusively by batsmen, many times. In addition, almost always batted in the top 7, and if you don't think he was a better bat than quite a few guys who were selected at 5 or 6 in some of his Pakistani teams or other world teams of the time, I'd say it's you who "don't know ya history, eh?"

Welcome to Cricketweb, hope you enjoy it here.
 

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
On a more serious note, Red is right about those all rounders.

Miller, if it wasn't for the "I don't care anything after the WWII" attitude, would have averaged a lot more with the bat.

Botham was a truly great cricketer. Yes, I have trolled the die hard Botham fans for over-rating him, but he was the complete package at his peak.

Kapil took the bowling burden of the indian team for ever. If there is one cricketer whose bowling stats don't do justice, it is him.

Imran was the most driven cricketer of this quartet. An ATG bowler who was so hard to dismiss with the bat.

All 4 multi faceted cricketers. If they chose to focus on one discipline, I would think all 4 would have done a lot better in that.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Hadlee is the same. Coud have easily batted at 4/5/6 for NZ in his era without the responsibility of bowling and with more emphasis placed on his batting. I mean the guy made a 100 against a Holding, Roberts, Garner and Croft attack, so he could clearly bat in test cricket.


You can see how much class and skill he had with the bat.
 

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