Cribbage's Standardised Test Averages (UPDATED November 2018 - posts 753-755)

[centurymaker]

cribbage isn't providing us a list of rankings. he's just giving us a list of averages..

 

[Chewie]

It's a ranking of the standardised averages...

 

[ankitj]

I just made it a lot more precise in how it measured the quality of the opposition. Narrowed down the time span to the year of the match and two years either side rather than just decade it was played in, and also factored in some different things for home and away matches.

Like your batsmen list better tbh. For bowlers, you really need to take into account the quality of batsmen within a team.

Someone did that kind of standardization on this forum, an year back. Was it me?

 

[weldone]

Like your batsmen list better tbh. For bowlers, you really need to take into account the quality of batsmen within a team.

Sorry, but your analysis was largely faulty anyway. PEWS has done a much better job.

I think I have said it earlier - for doing a opposition individual batsman-wise analysis you need data at the level of 'how many runs did this bowler concede to this particular batsman'. You need to calculate a bowler's average against each and every batsman as 'runs conceded to this particular batsman/number of times dismissed' and then do an analysis based on that. In essence, if a bowler is discredited for getting too many taileneder wickets, then a bowler also needs to be penalised HUGELY when a Jason Gillespie or Wasim Akram in the opposition team scores a 200 (or an Agarkar cores a 100, for example). Similarly, when a Bradman in the opposition team scores a 100 against you and you can't dismiss him, and then end up taking 3 tailender wickets, you should NOT be penalised heavily (your analysis assumes in a way that those 100 runs were scored by the tailenders). And I don't think that data is available anywhere (might be available for matches in the last 40 years or so, but certainly not beyond that). Such an analysis is beyond us as a result. That's why your analysis was not only incomplete, but faulty at the same time.

Improper statistical analysis can be dangerous. I would even trust averages at face value over your numbers. Sorry if I sounded like a asshole pouring water all over your hardwork, but this is what I feel very strongly, being someone from statistics background. I appreciate the hardwork involved, but the analysis was nonsense to be precise.

 

[Migara]

I've standardised matches across era standards as well now. I've also put in a simple method in which to measure the 'value' of a batsman by considering by standardised average (performance) and standardised matches (longevity).

EDIT: You have to scroll across now, unfortunately.

				Span		Mts	Std Mts	Runs	Avg	Std Avg	Value

DG Bradman (Aus)		1928-1948	52	[b]95[/b]	6996	99.94	[b]95.48	156.55[/b]
SR Tendulkar (India)		1989-2011	181	[b]108[/b]	14965	56.26	[b]54.43	57.87[/b]
GS Sobers (WI)			1954-1974	93	[b]95[/b]	8032	57.78	[b]55.59	53.22[/b]
GA Headley (WI)			1930-1954	22	[b]59[/b]	2190	60.83	[b]67.67	48.88[/b]
WR Hammond (Eng)		1927-1947	85	[b]89[/b]	7249	58.46	[b]54.02	47.25[/b]
AD Nourse (SA)			1935-1951	34	[b]85[/b]	2960	53.82	[b]54.60	45.90[/b]
JB Hobbs (Eng)			1908-1930	61	[b]80[/b]	5410	56.95	[b]55.54	44.57[/b]
B Mitchell (SA)			1929-1949	42	[b]104[/b]	3471	48.89	[b]48.31	44.14[/b]
HW Taylor (SA)			1912-1932	42	[b]100[/b]	2936	40.78	[b]47.06	40.07[/b]
SM Gavaskar (India)		1971-1987	125	[b]82[/b]	10122	51.12	[b]51.66	39.76[/b]
Javed Miandad (Pak)		1976-1993	124	[b]87[/b]	8832	52.57	[b]50.26	39.66[/b]
L Hutton (Eng)			1937-1955	79	[b]77[/b]	6971	56.67	[b]52.76	38.84[/b]
AR Border (Aus)			1978-1994	156	[b]80[/b]	11174	50.56	[b]51.05	37.69[/b]
R Dravid (India)		1996-2011	156	[b]80[/b]	12752	53.36	[b]50.38	36.78[/b]
SR Waugh (Aus)			1985-2004	168	[b]82[/b]	10927	51.06	[b]49.40	36.40[/b]
JH Kallis (SA)			1995-2011	144	[b]75[/b]	11864	57.31	[b]51.58	36.36[/b]
BC Lara (WI)			1990-2006	130	[b]70[/b]	11912	53.18	[b]53.24	35.83[/b]
IVA Richards (WI)		1974-1991	121	[b]78[/b]	8540	50.24	[b]49.82	35.12[/b]
RN Harvey (Aus)			1948-1963	79	[b]75[/b]	6149	48.42	[b]49.27	33.14[/b]
CG Macartney (Aus)		1907-1926	35	[b]74[/b]	2131	41.78	[b]49.59	33.07[/b]
CH Lloyd (WI)			1966-1984	110	[b]81[/b]	7515	46.68	[b]46.70	32.16[/b]
W Bardsley (Aus)		1909-1926	41	[b]87[/b]	2469	40.48	[b]45.11	31.94[/b]
DCS Compton (Eng)		1937-1957	78	[b]74[/b]	5807	50.06	[b]48.61	31.49[/b]
RT Ponting (Aus)		1995-2011	153	[b]71[/b]	12387	53.16	[b]49.02	31.00[/b]
RB Kanhai (WI)			1957-1974	79	[b]79[/b]	6227	47.53	[b]46.27	30.64[/b]
AL Hassett (Aus)		1938-1953	43	[b]78[/b]	3073	46.56	[b]46.38	30.55[/b]
Hanif Mohammad (Pak)		1952-1969	55	[b]87[/b]	3915	43.99	[b]43.97	30.35[/b]
WW Armstrong (Aus)		1902-1921	50	[b]85[/b]	2863	38.69	[b]43.73	29.51[/b]
Inzamam-ul-Haq (Pak)		1992-2007	119	[b]70[/b]	8829	50.16	[b]48.02	29.33[/b]
S Chanderpaul (WI)		1994-2011	133	[b]71[/b]	9367	49.04	[b]47.23	28.88[/b]
ED Weekes (WI)			1948-1958	48	[b]50[/b]	4455	58.62	[b]56.19	28.87[/b]
C Hill (Aus)			1896-1912	49	[b]69[/b]	3412	39.22	[b]47.35	28.09[/b]
AW Nourse (SA)			1902-1924	45	[b]120[/b]	2234	29.79	[b]35.59	27.60[/b]
DPMD Jayawardene (SL)		1997-2011	122	[b]69[/b]	9852	52.4	[b]45.65	25.93[/b]
CL Walcott (WI)			1948-1960	44	[b]45[/b]	3798	56.69	[b]56.30	25.91[/b]
EAB Rowan (SA)			1935-1951	26	[b]65[/b]	1965	43.67	[b]46.90	25.90[/b]
FMM Worrell (WI)		1948-1963	51	[b]54[/b]	3860	49.49	[b]51.10	25.70[/b]
M Azharuddin (India)		1984-2000	99	[b]74[/b]	6215	45.04	[b]43.72	25.63[/b]
GS Chappell (Aus)		1970-1984	87	[b]49[/b]	7110	53.86	[b]53.38	25.47[/b]
A Flower (Zim)			1992-2002	63	[b]53[/b]	4794	51.55	[b]51.27	25.25[/b]
KF Barrington (Eng)		1955-1968	82	[b]44[/b]	6806	58.67	[b]55.83	24.94[/b]
PA de Silva (SL)		1984-2002	93	[b]76[/b]	6361	42.98	[b]42.41	24.66[/b]
DB Vengsarkar (India)		1976-1992	116	[b]73[/b]	6868	42.13	[b]42.97	24.26[/b]
VVS Laxman (India)		1996-2011	127	[b]65[/b]	8328	46.27	[b]45.21	24.11[/b]
VT Trumper (Aus)		1899-1912	48	[b]63[/b]	3163	39.05	[b]45.86	24.08[/b]
B Sutcliffe (NZ)		1947-1965	42	[b]68[/b]	2727	40.1	[b]44.07	23.85[/b]
CG Greenidge (WI)		1974-1991	108	[b]70[/b]	7558	44.72	[b]43.44	23.84[/b]
KC Sangakkara (SL)		2000-2011	100	[b]56[/b]	8651	55.81	[b]48.35	23.59[/b]
DL Haynes (WI)			1978-1994	116	[b]78[/b]	7487	42.3	[b]40.74	23.48[/b]
MP Donnelly (NZ)		1937-1949	7	[b]51[/b]	582	52.91	[b]49.83	22.96[/b]
Mohammad Yousuf (Pak)		1998-2010	90	[b]53[/b]	7530	52.29	[b]48.57	22.74[/b]
GA Faulkner (SA)		1906-1924	25	[b]59[/b]	1754	40.79	[b]45.99	22.45[/b]
Zaheer Abbas (Pak)		1969-1985	78	[b]68[/b]	5062	44.8	[b]42.71	22.33[/b]
JB Stollmeyer (WI)		1939-1955	32	[b]74[/b]	2159	42.33	[b]40.83	22.26[/b]
DJ McGlew (SA)			1951-1962	34	[b]49[/b]	2440	42.07	[b]49.79	21.87[/b]
RG Pollock (SA)			1963-1970	23	[b]35[/b]	2256	60.97	[b]58.54	21.87[/b]
MC Cowdrey (Eng)		1954-1975	114	[b]63[/b]	7624	44.07	[b]43.85	21.82[/b]
H Sutcliffe (Eng)		1924-1935	54	[b]40[/b]	4555	60.73	[b]54.94	21.66[/b]
GR Viswanath (India)		1969-1983	91	[b]63[/b]	6080	41.93	[b]43.38	21.40[/b]
G Boycott (Eng)			1964-1982	108	[b]56[/b]	8114	47.73	[b]45.57	21.05[/b]
WM Lawry (Aus)			1961-1971	67	[b]51[/b]	5234	47.15	[b]47.77	21.04[/b]
PR Umrigar (India)		1948-1962	59	[b]65[/b]	3631	42.22	[b]42.32	20.94[/b]
Saleem Malik (Pak)		1982-1999	103	[b]67[/b]	5768	43.7	[b]41.69	20.94[/b]
Mushtaq Mohammad (Pak)		1959-1979	57	[b]76[/b]	3643	39.17	[b]38.92	20.86[/b]
DI Gower (Eng)			1978-1992	117	[b]58[/b]	8231	44.25	[b]44.38	20.62[/b]
JR Reid (NZ)			1949-1965	58	[b]85[/b]	3428	33.28	[b]36.66	20.60[/b]
Asif Iqbal (Pak)		1964-1980	58	[b]71[/b]	3575	38.86	[b]39.79	20.22[/b]
A Ranatunga (SL)		1982-2000	93	[b]86[/b]	5105	35.7	[b]35.83	20.09[/b]
VM Merchant (India)		1933-1951	10	[b]45[/b]	859	47.72	[b]49.75	20.06[/b]
GA Gooch (Eng)			1975-1995	118	[b]59[/b]	8900	42.58	[b]42.84	19.78[/b]
SP Fleming (NZ)			1994-2008	111	[b]67[/b]	7172	40.07	[b]40.01	19.56[/b]
WL Murdoch (Aus/Eng)		1877-1892	18	[b]40[/b]	908	31.31	[b]51.61	19.30[/b]
Saeed Ahmed (Pak)		1958-1972	41	[b]68[/b]	2991	40.42	[b]39.35	19.14[/b]
HP Tillakaratne (SL)		1989-2004	83	[b]57[/b]	4545	42.88	[b]43.08	19.07[/b]
MD Crowe (NZ)			1982-1995	77	[b]57[/b]	5444	45.37	[b]42.95	19.06[/b]
C Kelleway (Aus)		1910-1928	26	[b]61[/b]	1422	37.42	[b]41.37	18.89[/b]
WM Woodfull (Aus)		1926-1934	35	[b]44[/b]	2300	46	[b]48.69	18.79[/b]
SE Gregory (Aus)		1890-1912	58	[b]93[/b]	2282	24.54	[b]33.38	18.78[/b]
AJ Stewart (Eng)		1990-2003	133	[b]59[/b]	8463	39.55	[b]41.72	18.75[/b]
TL Goddard (SA)			1955-1970	41	[b]67[/b]	2516	34.47	[b]39.09	18.63[/b]
SJ McCabe (Aus)			1930-1938	39	[b]44[/b]	2748	48.21	[b]48.33	18.52[/b]
ME Waugh (Aus)			1991-2002	128	[b]57[/b]	8029	41.82	[b]42.31	18.50[/b]
DC Boon (Aus)			1984-1996	107	[b]57[/b]	7422	43.66	[b]42.22	18.44[/b]
VS Hazare (India)		1946-1953	30	[b]36[/b]	2192	47.65	[b]53.16	18.37[/b]
J Ryder (Aus)			1920-1929	20	[b]35[/b]	1394	51.63	[b]53.63	18.32[/b]
KD Walters (Aus)		1965-1981	74	[b]46[/b]	5357	48.26	[b]46.74	18.31[/b]
RB Simpson (Aus)		1957-1978	62	[b]47[/b]	4869	46.82	[b]46.17	18.21[/b]
G Kirsten (SA)			1993-2004	101	[b]52[/b]	7289	45.27	[b]43.95	18.01[/b]
ML Hayden (Aus)			1994-2009	102	[b]46[/b]	8437	50.22	[b]46.49	18.00[/b]
WA Brown (Aus)			1934-1948	22	[b]48[/b]	1592	46.82	[b]45.29	17.88[/b]
Majid Khan (Pak)		1964-1983	63	[b]68[/b]	3931	38.92	[b]38.24	17.88[/b]
EJ Barlow (SA)			1961-1970	30	[b]49[/b]	2516	45.75	[b]44.46	17.63[/b]
Younis Khan (Pak)		2000-2011	68	[b]42[/b]	5719	51.06	[b]48.03	17.45[/b]
WH Ponsford (Aus)		1924-1934	29	[b]40[/b]	2122	48.23	[b]49.19	17.38[/b]
SG Barnes (Aus)			1938-1948	13	[b]36[/b]	1072	63.06	[b]51.92	17.36[/b]
Imran Khan (Pak)		1971-1992	88	[b]71[/b]	3807	37.69	[b]36.72	17.26[/b]
A Shrewsbury snr (Eng)		1881-1893	23	[b]41[/b]	1277	35.47	[b]48.02	17.04[/b]
ST Jayasuriya (SL)		1991-2007	110	[b]66[/b]	6973	40.07	[b]37.55	16.96[/b]
SC Ganguly (India)		1996-2008	113	[b]56[/b]	7212	42.18	[b]40.76	16.91[/b]
V Sehwag (India)		2001-2011	88	[b]40[/b]	7652	52.41	[b]47.71	16.68[/b]
M Amarnath (India)		1969-1988	69	[b]49[/b]	4378	42.5	[b]43.11	16.65[/b]
JG Wright (NZ)			1978-1993	82	[b]71[/b]	5334	37.83	[b]35.95	16.58[/b]
RB Richardson (WI)		1983-1995	86	[b]52[/b]	5949	44.4	[b]41.62	16.25[/b]
JL Langer (Aus)			1993-2007	104	[b]47[/b]	7674	45.68	[b]43.84	16.21[/b]
W Rhodes (Eng)			1899-1930	58	[b]77[/b]	2325	30.19	[b]33.97	16.06[/b]
GP Thorpe (Eng)			1993-2005	100	[b]42[/b]	6744	44.66	[b]45.78	15.97[/b]
GC Smith (SA)			2002-2011	90	[b]46[/b]	7445	50.3	[b]43.71	15.97[/b]
JHB Waite (SA)			1951-1965	50	[b]66[/b]	2405	30.44	[b]36.49	15.92[/b]
IR Redpath (Aus)		1964-1976	66	[b]46[/b]	4737	43.46	[b]43.68	15.92[/b]
PBH May (Eng)			1951-1961	66	[b]37[/b]	4537	46.77	[b]48.34	15.75[/b]
VL Manjrekar (India)		1951-1965	55	[b]57[/b]	3208	39.12	[b]39.06	15.73[/b]
AI Kallicharran (WI)		1972-1980	66	[b]41[/b]	4399	44.43	[b]46.21	15.73[/b]
FE Woolley (Eng)		1909-1934	64	[b]77[/b]	3283	36.08	[b]33.39	15.51[/b]
AR Morris (Aus)			1946-1955	46	[b]44[/b]	3533	46.49	[b]43.88	15.49[/b]
MA Taylor (Aus)			1989-1999	104	[b]48[/b]	7525	43.5	[b]42.10	15.35[/b]
MA Noble (Aus)			1898-1909	42	[b]60[/b]	1997	30.26	[b]37.50	15.33[/b]
TW Graveney (Eng)		1951-1969	79	[b]44[/b]	4882	44.38	[b]43.60	15.13[/b]
RC Fredericks (WI)		1968-1977	59	[b]44[/b]	4334	42.49	[b]43.49	15.08[/b]
MA Atherton (Eng)		1989-2001	115	[b]55[/b]	7728	37.7	[b]38.94	15.02[/b]
EH Hendren (Eng)		1920-1935	51	[b]43[/b]	3525	47.64	[b]43.83	15.01[/b]
GM Turner (NZ)			1969-1983	41	[b]44[/b]	2991	44.64	[b]43.21	14.95[/b]
N Kapil Dev (India)		1978-1994	131	[b]84[/b]	5248	31.05	[b]31.20	14.75[/b]
IM Chappell (Aus)		1964-1980	75	[b]47[/b]	5345	42.42	[b]41.75	14.70[/b]
A Melville (SA)			1938-1949	11	[b]39[/b]	894	52.59	[b]45.35	14.51[/b]
AC Gilchrist (Aus)		1999-2008	95	[b]41[/b]	5475	47.61	[b]44.36	14.50[/b]
BF Butcher (WI)			1958-1969	44	[b]43[/b]	3104	43.11	[b]43.25	14.47[/b]
CC Hunte (WI)			1958-1967	44	[b]47[/b]	3245	45.07	[b]41.16	14.45[/b]
CL Hooper (WI)			1987-2002	102	[b]58[/b]	5762	36.47	[b]37.05	14.45[/b]
RA McLean (SA)			1951-1964	40	[b]55[/b]	2120	30.29	[b]38.05	14.35[/b]
JJ Lyons (Aus)			1887-1897	14	[b]33[/b]	731	27.07	[b]48.60	14.25[/b]
Hon.FS Jackson (Eng)		1893-1905	20	[b]29[/b]	1415	48.79	[b]52.41	14.20[/b]
MS Atapattu (SL)		1990-2007	90	[b]57[/b]	5502	39.02	[b]36.39	13.75[/b]
PS McDonnell (Aus)		1880-1888	19	[b]31[/b]	955	28.94	[b]49.57	13.71[/b]
CC McDonald (Aus)		1952-1961	47	[b]40[/b]	3107	39.33	[b]43.37	13.59[/b]
WG Grace (Eng)			1880-1899	22	[b]37[/b]	1098	32.29	[b]44.56	13.48[/b]
JH Edrich (Eng)			1963-1976	77	[b]41[/b]	5138	43.54	[b]42.33	13.46[/b]
G Giffen (Aus)			1881-1896	31	[b]61[/b]	1238	23.36	[b]34.99	13.43[/b]
AC MacLaren (Eng)		1894-1909	35	[b]47[/b]	1931	33.88	[b]39.63	13.39[/b]
AC Bannerman (Aus)		1879-1893	28	[b]60[/b]	1108	23.08	[b]35.22	13.38[/b]
J Darling (Aus)			1894-1905	34	[b]50[/b]	1657	28.57	[b]38.47	13.38[/b]
Saeed Anwar (Pak)		1990-2001	55	[b]35[/b]	4052	45.53	[b]45.32	13.10[/b]
TW Hayward (Eng)		1896-1909	35	[b]44[/b]	1999	34.47	[b]39.92	12.83[/b]
KR Miller (Aus)			1946-1956	55	[b]50[/b]	2958	36.98	[b]37.58	12.82[/b]
G Ulyett (Eng)			1877-1890	25	[b]52[/b]	949	24.33	[b]36.51	12.63[/b]
CP Mead (Eng)			1911-1928	17	[b]28[/b]	1185	49.38	[b]50.10	12.61[/b]
RJ Shastri (India)		1981-1992	80	[b]51[/b]	3830	35.79	[b]36.71	12.50[/b]
NC O'Neill (Aus)		1958-1965	42	[b]30[/b]	2779	45.56	[b]47.59	12.45[/b]
TT Samaraweera (SL)		2001-2011	68	[b]38[/b]	4683	52.62	[b]42.44	12.38[/b]
M Leyland (Eng)			1928-1938	41	[b]27[/b]	2764	46.07	[b]49.67	12.22[/b]
GHS Trott (Aus)			1888-1898	24	[b]53[/b]	921	21.93	[b]35.83	12.21[/b]
AP Gurusinha (SL)		1985-1996	41	[b]44[/b]	2452	38.92	[b]38.95	12.10[/b]
NJ Astle (NZ)			1996-2006	81	[b]49[/b]	4702	37.02	[b]36.88	11.99[/b]
Mudassar Nazar (Pak)		1976-1989	76	[b]50[/b]	4114	38.09	[b]36.49	11.96[/b]
SM Nurse (WI)			1960-1969	29	[b]29[/b]	2523	47.6	[b]47.58	11.95[/b]
CH Gayle (WI)			2000-2010	91	[b]44[/b]	6373	41.65	[b]38.85	11.94[/b]
RH Catterall (SA)		1922-1931	24	[b]42[/b]	1555	37.93	[b]39.25	11.77[/b]
HH Gibbs (SA)			1996-2008	90	[b]42[/b]	6167	41.95	[b]39.38	11.77[/b]
C Washbrook (Eng)		1937-1956	37	[b]36[/b]	2569	42.82	[b]42.51	11.76[/b]
DJ Cullinan (SA)		1993-2001	70	[b]36[/b]	4554	44.21	[b]42.58	11.70[/b]
N Hussain (Eng)			1990-2004	96	[b]43[/b]	5764	37.19	[b]38.87	11.70[/b]
JV Coney (NZ)			1974-1987	52	[b]48[/b]	2668	37.58	[b]36.62	11.67[/b]
MEK Hussey (Aus)		2005-2011	62	[b]29[/b]	5113	53.26	[b]46.91	11.43[/b]
DR Martyn (Aus)			1992-2006	67	[b]29[/b]	4406	46.38	[b]46.21	11.34[/b]
BE Congdon (NZ)			1965-1978	61	[b]62[/b]	3448	32.22	[b]31.73	11.30[/b]
KP Pietersen (Eng)		2005-2011	78	[b]30[/b]	6361	50.48	[b]45.74	11.28[/b]
NS Sidhu (India)		1983-1999	51	[b]35[/b]	3202	42.13	[b]42.37	11.25[/b]
ER Dexter (Eng)			1958-1968	62	[b]31[/b]	4502	47.89	[b]44.40	11.21[/b]
MAK Pataudi (India)		1961-1975	46	[b]53[/b]	2793	34.91	[b]34.23	11.16[/b]
RR Sarwan (WI)			2000-2011	87	[b]44[/b]	5842	40.01	[b]37.26	11.06[/b]
RA Smith (Eng)			1988-1996	62	[b]30[/b]	4236	43.67	[b]44.91	11.01[/b]
CG Borde (India)		1958-1969	55	[b]52[/b]	3061	35.59	[b]34.12	10.90[/b]
Wasim Raja (Pak)		1973-1985	57	[b]42[/b]	2821	36.17	[b]37.67	10.68[/b]
JW Zulch (SA)			1910-1921	16	[b]40[/b]	983	32.77	[b]38.27	10.64[/b]
HA Gomes (WI)			1976-1987	60	[b]38[/b]	3171	39.64	[b]38.98	10.57[/b]
J Hardstaff jnr (Eng)		1935-1948	23	[b]29[/b]	1636	46.74	[b]45.04	10.54[/b]
MH Mankad (India)		1946-1959	44	[b]55[/b]	2109	31.48	[b]32.56	10.54[/b]
IT Botham (Eng)			1977-1992	102	[b]50[/b]	5200	33.55	[b]33.95	10.53[/b]
MJ Clarke (Aus)			2004-2011	71	[b]32[/b]	4912	46.78	[b]42.57	10.50[/b]
Ijaz Ahmed (Pak)		1987-2001	60	[b]39[/b]	3315	37.67	[b]38.73	10.49[/b]
AB de Villiers (SA)		2004-2011	66	[b]34[/b]	4741	47.41	[b]41.41	10.46[/b]
WJ Edrich (Eng)			1938-1955	39	[b]38[/b]	2440	40	[b]38.86	10.44[/b]
JT Tyldesley (Eng)		1899-1909	31	[b]38[/b]	1661	30.76	[b]38.72	10.23[/b]
KC Bland (SA)			1961-1966	21	[b]25[/b]	1669	49.09	[b]47.29	10.11[/b]
JC Adams (WI)			1992-2001	54	[b]30[/b]	3012	41.26	[b]43.15	10.07[/b]
JM Gregory (Aus)		1920-1928	24	[b]40[/b]	1146	36.97	[b]36.82	9.92[/b]
DG Phadkar (India)		1947-1958	31	[b]41[/b]	1229	32.34	[b]36.31	9.90[/b]
MJ Slater (Aus)			1993-2001	74	[b]31[/b]	5312	42.84	[b]42.20	9.85[/b]
W Bruce (Aus)			1885-1895	14	[b]29[/b]	702	29.25	[b]42.90	9.82[/b]
Sadiq Mohammad (Pak)		1969-1980	41	[b]40[/b]	2579	35.82	[b]36.46	9.74[/b]
PJP Burge (Aus)			1955-1966	42	[b]33[/b]	2290	38.17	[b]40.17	9.72[/b]
FA Iredale (Aus)		1894-1899	14	[b]21[/b]	807	36.68	[b]49.98	9.63[/b]
DM Jones (Aus)			1984-1992	52	[b]28[/b]	3631	46.55	[b]43.16	9.60[/b]
TM Dilshan (SL)			1999-2011	71	[b]40[/b]	4382	42.96	[b]36.48	9.60[/b]
KS Ranjitsinhji (Eng)		1896-1902	15	[b]18[/b]	989	44.95	[b]54.79	9.56[/b]
AJ Lamb (Eng)			1982-1992	79	[b]39[/b]	4656	36.09	[b]36.80	9.55[/b]
MG Burgess (NZ)			1968-1980	50	[b]52[/b]	2684	31.21	[b]31.78	9.53[/b]
P Roy (India)			1951-1982	45	[b]42[/b]	2513	32.64	[b]35.31	9.52[/b]
WR Endean (SA)			1951-1958	28	[b]34[/b]	1630	33.96	[b]39.41	9.42[/b]
MP Vaughan (Eng)		1999-2008	82	[b]33[/b]	5719	41.44	[b]39.77	9.40[/b]
APE Knott (Eng)			1967-1981	95	[b]51[/b]	4389	32.75	[b]31.67	9.31[/b]
SM Pollock (SA)			1995-2008	108	[b]52[/b]	3781	32.32	[b]31.55	9.29[/b]
GP Howarth (NZ)			1975-1985	47	[b]44[/b]	2531	32.45	[b]34.29	9.28[/b]
AN Cook (Eng)			2006-2011	72	[b]27[/b]	5868	49.73	[b]43.57	9.28[/b]
AJ Strauss (Eng)		2004-2011	89	[b]34[/b]	6340	41.99	[b]38.51	9.25[/b]
AE Stoddart (Eng)		1888-1898	16	[b]28[/b]	996	35.57	[b]42.46	9.22[/b]
FM Engineer (India)		1961-1975	46	[b]53[/b]	2611	31.08	[b]31.05	9.18[/b]
HL Collins (Aus)		1920-1926	19	[b]27[/b]	1352	45.07	[b]43.17	9.15[/b]
R Abel (Eng)			1888-1902	13	[b]21[/b]	744	37.2	[b]49.28	9.12[/b]
IR Bell (Eng)			2004-2011	69	[b]27[/b]	5027	49.28	[b]43.31	9.07[/b]
WJ Cronje (SA)			1992-2000	68	[b]39[/b]	3714	36.41	[b]35.91	9.03[/b]
DL Amiss (Eng)			1966-1977	50	[b]28[/b]	3612	46.31	[b]42.17	8.89[/b]
AG Steel (Eng)			1880-1888	13	[b]21[/b]	600	35.29	[b]48.08	8.82[/b]
AG Prince (SA)			2002-2011	62	[b]32[/b]	3556	43.37	[b]38.99	8.75[/b]
GT Dowling (NZ)			1961-1972	39	[b]47[/b]	2306	31.16	[b]31.75	8.57[/b]
KJ Hughes (Aus)			1977-1984	70	[b]30[/b]	4415	37.42	[b]39.62	8.56[/b]
Shoaib Mohammad (Pak)		1983-1995	45	[b]30[/b]	2705	44.34	[b]40.01	8.56[/b]
ME Trescothick (Eng)		2000-2006	76	[b]27[/b]	5825	43.8	[b]41.74	8.56[/b]
KR Stackpole (Aus)		1966-1974	43	[b]32[/b]	2807	37.43	[b]38.12	8.39[/b]
AH Jones (NZ)			1987-1995	39	[b]28[/b]	2922	44.27	[b]40.86	8.33[/b]
KD Mackay (Aus)			1956-1963	37	[b]33[/b]	1507	33.49	[b]37.21	8.26[/b]
CB Fry (Eng)			1896-1912	26	[b]32[/b]	1223	32.18	[b]37.92	8.23[/b]
MW Gatting (Eng)		1978-1995	79	[b]38[/b]	4409	35.56	[b]34.28	8.19[/b]
LEG Ames (Eng)			1929-1939	47	[b]33[/b]	2434	40.57	[b]37.13	8.13[/b]
SV Manjrekar (India)		1987-1996	37	[b]29[/b]	2043	37.15	[b]39.31	8.09[/b]
HG Vivian (NZ)			1931-1937	7	[b]23[/b]	421	42.1	[b]43.65	7.93[/b]
CL Cairns (NZ)			1989-2004	62	[b]41[/b]	3320	33.54	[b]32.71	7.89[/b]
VS Ransford (Aus)		1907-1912	20	[b]21[/b]	1211	37.84	[b]45.45	7.87[/b]
BB McCullum (NZ)		2004-2011	57	[b]38[/b]	3389	37.24	[b]33.50	7.78[/b]
KWR Fletcher (Eng)		1968-1982	59	[b]30[/b]	3272	39.9	[b]37.73	7.77[/b]
HM Amla (SA)			2004-2011	51	[b]26[/b]	3897	46.95	[b]40.38	7.69[/b]
CD McMillan (NZ)		1997-2005	55	[b]31[/b]	3116	38.47	[b]36.77	7.65[/b]
W Barnes (Eng)			1880-1890	21	[b]37[/b]	725	23.39	[b]33.68	7.62[/b]
AW Greig (Eng)			1972-1977	58	[b]27[/b]	3599	40.44	[b]39.56	7.62[/b]
WW Read (Eng)			1882-1893	18	[b]30[/b]	720	27.69	[b]36.82	7.39[/b]
JWHT Douglas (Eng)		1911-1925	23	[b]43[/b]	962	29.15	[b]30.80	7.38[/b]
DL Houghton (Zim)		1992-1997	22	[b]25[/b]	1464	43.06	[b]40.10	7.30[/b]
HB Cameron (SA)			1927-1935	26	[b]39[/b]	1239	30.22	[b]32.00	7.27[/b]
SM Katich (Aus)			2001-2010	55	[b]23[/b]	4186	46	[b]41.82	7.27[/b]
AL Wadekar (India)		1966-1974	37	[b]39[/b]	2113	31.07	[b]31.58	7.13[/b]
MH Richardson (NZ)		2000-2004	38	[b]20[/b]	2776	44.77	[b]43.76	7.03[/b]
BL D'Oliveira (Eng)		1966-1972	44	[b]25[/b]	2484	40.06	[b]38.99	6.97[/b]
CPS Chauhan (India)		1969-1981	40	[b]31[/b]	2084	31.58	[b]34.91	6.90[/b]
PD Collingwood (Eng)		2003-2011	68	[b]27[/b]	4259	40.56	[b]37.87	6.90[/b]
DT Lindsay (SA)			1963-1970	19	[b]29[/b]	1130	37.67	[b]36.12	6.87[/b]
E Paynter (Eng)			1931-1939	20	[b]15[/b]	1540	59.23	[b]49.83	6.79[/b]
GM Wood (Aus)			1978-1988	59	[b]29[/b]	3374	31.83	[b]35.69	6.77[/b]
S Mushtaq Ali (India)		1934-1952	11	[b]34[/b]	612	32.21	[b]33.15	6.74[/b]
RA Duff (Aus)			1902-1905	22	[b]16[/b]	1317	35.59	[b]47.07	6.58[/b]
DN Sardesai (India)		1961-1972	30	[b]32[/b]	2001	39.24	[b]33.56	6.58[/b]
Mohsin Khan (Pak)		1978-1986	48	[b]29[/b]	2709	37.11	[b]35.24	6.56[/b]
JN Rhodes (SA)			1992-2000	52	[b]30[/b]	2532	35.66	[b]34.95	6.54[/b]
MA Butcher (Eng)		1997-2004	71	[b]28[/b]	4288	34.58	[b]36.07	6.54[/b]
Rameez Raja (Pak)		1984-1997	57	[b]39[/b]	2833	31.83	[b]30.15	6.42[/b]
JW Burke (Aus)			1951-1959	24	[b]20[/b]	1280	34.59	[b]41.81	6.39[/b]
CA Roach (WI)			1928-1935	16	[b]32[/b]	952	30.71	[b]32.99	6.36[/b]
BC Booth (Aus)			1961-1966	29	[b]20[/b]	1773	42.21	[b]41.71	6.25[/b]
AF Kippax (Aus)			1925-1934	22	[b]28[/b]	1192	36.12	[b]35.23	6.24[/b]
RES Wyatt (Eng)			1927-1937	40	[b]28[/b]	1839	31.71	[b]35.03	6.24[/b]
JM Taylor (Aus)			1920-1926	20	[b]29[/b]	997	35.61	[b]34.67	6.21[/b]
LG Rowe (WI)			1972-1980	30	[b]18[/b]	2047	43.55	[b]43.04	6.20[/b]
GN Yallop (Aus)			1976-1984	39	[b]18[/b]	2756	41.13	[b]43.19	6.20[/b]
TE Bailey (Eng)			1949-1959	61	[b]37[/b]	2290	29.74	[b]30.17	6.11[/b]
JHW Fingleton (Aus)		1932-1938	18	[b]23[/b]	1189	42.46	[b]38.51	6.10[/b]
MS Dhoni (India)		2005-2011	61	[b]27[/b]	3242	38.14	[b]35.03	6.10[/b]
W Bates (Eng)			1881-1887	15	[b]22[/b]	656	27.33	[b]38.71	6.07[/b]
GA Hick (Eng)			1991-2001	65	[b]30[/b]	3383	31.32	[b]33.45	6.00[/b]
G Gambhir (India)		2004-2011	41	[b]18[/b]	3336	48.35	[b]42.25	5.97[/b]
PAM Hands (SA)			1913-1924	7	[b]23[/b]	300	25	[b]37.41	5.93[/b]
Aamer Sohail (Pak)		1992-2000	47	[b]27[/b]	2823	35.29	[b]35.01	5.93[/b]
ND McKenzie (SA)		2000-2009	58	[b]26[/b]	3253	37.39	[b]35.13	5.91[/b]
G Gunn (Eng)			1907-1930	15	[b]20[/b]	1120	40	[b]40.68	5.89[/b]
BM McMillan (SA)		1992-1998	38	[b]22[/b]	1968	39.36	[b]37.80	5.76[/b]
LC Braund (Eng)			1901-1908	23	[b]27[/b]	987	25.97	[b]34.37	5.71[/b]
KC Wessels (Aus/SA)		1982-1994	24	[b]19[/b]	2788	41	[b]40.64	5.70[/b]
NJ Contractor (India)		1955-1962	31	[b]28[/b]	1611	31.59	[b]33.66	5.67[/b]
JDC Goddard (WI)		1948-1957	27	[b]30[/b]	859	30.68	[b]32.04	5.62[/b]
M Prabhakar (India)		1984-1995	39	[b]31[/b]	1600	32.65	[b]31.58	5.58[/b]
HR Adhikari (India)		1947-1959	21	[b]26[/b]	872	31.14	[b]34.69	5.56[/b]
AL Logie (WI)			1983-1991	52	[b]29[/b]	2470	35.8	[b]32.50	5.51[/b]
Waqar Hasan (Pak)		1952-1959	21	[b]28[/b]	1071	31.5	[b]33.07	5.49[/b]
LRPL Taylor (NZ)		2007-2011	30	[b]21[/b]	2221	41.13	[b]38.26	5.44[/b]
DS Atkinson (WI)		1948-1958	22	[b]23[/b]	922	31.79	[b]35.95	5.42[/b]
A Flintoff (Eng)		1998-2009	78	[b]31[/b]	3795	31.89	[b]31.04	5.35[/b]
JF Reid (NZ)			1979-1986	19	[b]16[/b]	1296	46.29	[b]43.14	5.33[/b]
GC White (SA)			1906-1912	17	[b]23[/b]	872	30.07	[b]35.51	5.31[/b]
JED Sealy (WI)			1930-1939	11	[b]29[/b]	478	28.12	[b]32.05	5.30[/b]
GR Marsh (Aus)			1985-1992	50	[b]28[/b]	2854	33.19	[b]32.40	5.28[/b]
AP Sheahan (Aus)		1967-1974	31	[b]22[/b]	1594	33.91	[b]36.34	5.26[/b]
GL Weir (NZ)			1930-1937	11	[b]30[/b]	416	29.71	[b]30.79	5.16[/b]
Misbah-ul-Haq (Pak)		2001-2011	26	[b]17[/b]	1712	45.05	[b]41.48	5.15[/b]
Hon.LH Tennyson (Eng)		1913-1921	9	[b]26[/b]	345	31.36	[b]32.78	5.11[/b]
SP Jones (Aus)			1882-1888	12	[b]16[/b]	428	21.4	[b]42.07	5.05[/b]
PE Richardson (Eng)		1956-1963	34	[b]18[/b]	2061	37.47	[b]39.41	5.02[/b]
RL Dias (SL)			1982-1987	20	[b]22[/b]	1285	36.71	[b]35.56	5.01[/b]
JS Solomon (WI)			1958-1965	27	[b]27[/b]	1326	34	[b]31.83	4.99[/b]
CP Carter (SA)			1912-1924	10	[b]27[/b]	181	18.1	[b]31.40	4.89[/b]
MJ Prior (Eng)			2007-2011	47	[b]17[/b]	2549	44.72	[b]39.18	4.85[/b]
MJ Greatbatch (NZ)		1988-1996	41	[b]29[/b]	2021	30.62	[b]30.11	4.83[/b]
CJ Barnett (Eng)		1933-1948	20	[b]22[/b]	1098	35.42	[b]34.37	4.81[/b]
GO Rabone (NZ)			1949-1955	12	[b]16[/b]	562	31.22	[b]40.15	4.79[/b]
BF Hastings (NZ)		1969-1976	31	[b]28[/b]	1510	30.2	[b]30.60	4.79[/b]
GRJ Matthews (Aus)		1983-1993	33	[b]18[/b]	1849	41.09	[b]38.61	4.78[/b]
PH Parfitt (Eng)		1961-1972	37	[b]20[/b]	1882	40.91	[b]36.18	4.76[/b]
JDP Oram (NZ)			2002-2009	33	[b]20[/b]	1780	36.33	[b]36.10	4.73[/b]
OG Smith (WI)			1955-1959	26	[b]21[/b]	1331	31.69	[b]35.15	4.72[/b]
AF Rae (WI)			1948-1953	15	[b]16[/b]	1016	46.18	[b]39.54	4.65[/b]
IJ Siedle (SA)			1928-1936	18	[b]26[/b]	977	28.74	[b]31.17	4.62[/b]
RG Barlow (Eng)			1881-1887	17	[b]25[/b]	591	22.73	[b]31.60	4.59[/b]
DW Randall (Eng)		1977-1984	47	[b]20[/b]	2470	33.38	[b]35.38	4.59[/b]
JM Parks (Eng)			1954-1968	46	[b]24[/b]	1962	32.16	[b]32.14	4.58[/b]
MJK Smith (Eng)			1958-1972	50	[b]28[/b]	2278	31.64	[b]30.13	4.56[/b]
L Klusener (SA)			1996-2004	49	[b]23[/b]	1906	32.86	[b]32.93	4.43[/b]
SL Campbell (WI)		1995-2002	52	[b]23[/b]	2882	32.38	[b]31.99	4.34[/b]
AD Gaekwad (India)		1974-1984	40	[b]23[/b]	1985	30.08	[b]32.22	4.33[/b]
A Bacher (SA)			1965-1970	12	[b]22[/b]	679	32.33	[b]32.95	4.30[/b]
EL Dalton (SA)			1929-1939	15	[b]26[/b]	698	31.73	[b]30.41	4.29[/b]
RS Madugalle (SL)		1982-1988	21	[b]26[/b]	1029	29.4	[b]30.09	4.19[/b]
CE McLeod (Aus)			1894-1905	17	[b]25[/b]	573	23.88	[b]30.38	4.17[/b]
Taufeeq Umar (Pak)		2001-2011	32	[b]20[/b]	2179	38.23	[b]33.44	4.12[/b]
MC Carew (WI)			1963-1972	19	[b]21[/b]	1127	34.15	[b]32.65	4.10[/b]
SB Styris (NZ)			2002-2007	29	[b]19[/b]	1586	36.05	[b]34.19	4.10[/b]
Imran Farhat (Pak)		2001-2010	39	[b]24[/b]	2327	31.88	[b]30.86	4.09[/b]
GS Blewett (Aus)		1995-2000	46	[b]19[/b]	2552	34.03	[b]34.38	4.08[/b]
AC Hudson (SA)			1992-1998	35	[b]21[/b]	2007	33.45	[b]33.04	4.06[/b]
KJ Funston (SA)			1952-1958	18	[b]22[/b]	824	25.75	[b]31.90	4.03[/b]
Tamim Iqbal (Ban)		2008-2011	20	[b]16[/b]	1503	39.55	[b]36.82	4.03[/b]
MR Ramprakash (Eng)		1991-2002	52	[b]23[/b]	2350	27.33	[b]30.82	4.02[/b]
PF Warner (Eng)			1899-1912	15	[b]17[/b]	622	23.92	[b]35.17	3.92[/b]
WH Scotton (Eng)		1881-1887	15	[b]22[/b]	510	22.17	[b]30.44	3.76[/b]
J Worrall (Aus)			1885-1899	11	[b]22[/b]	478	25.16	[b]30.98	3.75[/b]
JP Crawley (Eng)		1994-2003	37	[b]15[/b]	1800	34.62	[b]36.28	3.62[/b]
AJ Pithey (SA)			1957-1965	17	[b]21[/b]	819	31.5	[b]30.63	3.61[/b]
J Selby (Eng)			1877-1882	6	[b]16[/b]	256	23.27	[b]34.84	3.61[/b]
BA Young (NZ)			1993-1999	35	[b]19[/b]	2034	31.78	[b]32.37	3.57[/b]
KLT Arthurton (WI)		1988-1995	33	[b]19[/b]	1382	30.71	[b]31.80	3.56[/b]
Shoaib Malik (Pak)		2001-2010	32	[b]19[/b]	1606	33.46	[b]31.79	3.56[/b]
BK Kunderan (India)		1960-1967	18	[b]18[/b]	981	32.7	[b]32.75	3.52[/b]
MS Sinclair (NZ)		1999-2010	33	[b]20[/b]	1635	32.06	[b]31.13	3.52[/b]
GC Grant (WI)			1930-1935	12	[b]21[/b]	413	25.81	[b]30.57	3.47[/b]
AE Relf (Eng)			1903-1914	13	[b]16[/b]	416	23.11	[b]34.42	3.43[/b]
Shahid Afridi (Pak)		1998-2010	27	[b]16[/b]	1716	36.51	[b]34.27	3.40[/b]
DJ Bravo (WI)			2004-2010	40	[b]20[/b]	2200	31.43	[b]30.50	3.40[/b]
L Vincent (NZ)			2001-2007	23	[b]15[/b]	1332	34.15	[b]33.91	3.21[/b]
WW Hinds (WI)			2000-2005	45	[b]17[/b]	2608	33.01	[b]31.03	2.98[/b]
UC Hathurusingha (SL)		1991-1999	26	[b]17[/b]	1274	29.63	[b]30.81	2.96[/b]
Yuvraj Singh (India)		2003-2011	35	[b]17[/b]	1709	35.6	[b]30.93	2.95[/b]
AG Chipperfield (Aus)		1934-1938	14	[b]16[/b]	552	32.47	[b]30.01	2.63[/b]

Aside from some of those old-time South Africans with ridiculously long careers, the top 10 or so on that list isn't at all surprising.

Any possibility of doing the same for the bowlers?

 

[Ikki]

I agree with weldone; both ankit's and PEWs' lists are pretty flawed. Good effort but I think some sort of weighting has to be had with regards to conditions, home and away, and the changes in difficulty of these era to era.

 

[ankitj]

I think I have said it earlier - for doing a opposition individual batsman-wise analysis you need data at the level of 'how many runs did this bowler concede to this particular batsman'. You need to calculate a bowler's average against each and every batsman as 'runs conceded to this particular batsman/number of times dismissed' and then do an analysis based on that. In essence, if a bowler is discredited for getting too many taileneder wickets, then a bowler also needs to be penalised HUGELY when a Jason Gillespie or Wasim Akram in the opposition team scores a 200 (or an Agarkar cores a 100, for example). Similarly, when a Bradman in the opposition team scores a 100 against you and you can't dismiss him, and then end up taking 3 tailender wickets, you should NOT be penalised heavily (your analysis assumes in a way that those 100 runs were scored by the tailenders). And I don't think that data is available anywhere (might be available for matches in the last 40 years or so, but certainly not beyond that). Such an analysis is beyond us as a result. That's why your analysis was not only incomplete, but faulty at the same time.

I think you have missed the point here. As I mentioned earlier, and few others concurred, it's irrelevant who a bowler concedes runs to, but it is significant who he gets out. If bowler A gives fewer runs to top order and more runs to tail enders, the credit he deserves for first part is neutralized by the credit that must be taken away from him for second part. So, I really think it's irrelevant who you give runs to from a match perspective.

Improper statistical analysis can be dangerous. I would even trust averages at face value over your numbers. Sorry if I sounded like a asshole pouring water all over your hardwork, but this is what I feel very strongly, being someone from statistics background. I appreciate the hardwork involved, but the analysis was nonsense to be precise.

No worries about the criticism. And I know all about improper analysis, people do it all around me, and I spend significant amount of time telling them about the errors they commit (selection biases, after the fact filtering, not accounting for multi-collinearity etc), and I love thinking through those nuances.

 

[ankitj]

I agree with weldone; both ankit's and PEWs' lists are pretty flawed. Good effort but I think some sort of weighting has to be had with regards to conditions, home and away, and the changes in difficulty of these era to era.

Yeah, but it is not claimed that the rankings from these methods are cast in stone, and any of them are the perfect measures.

 

[Cabinet96]

Any reason why 32 runs have come off his Test v South Africa or were South Africa just that bloody good in the couple of years going into that Test?

Don't think they'd lost a series in the 2 years before that. The only draw coming in India and they'd won in England and Australia.

 

[Prince EWS]

cribbage isn't providing us a list of rankings. he's just giving us a list of averages..

Yeah, indeed. It's not supposed to be a ranking of quality as you need to take longevity into account as well - something I tired to do with one of my earlier batting lists. It ranks the players by the average quality of their performances during their careers, but you have to apply your own filter as to the length, consistency, decline etc of those careers.

I agree with weldone; both ankit's and PEWs' lists are pretty flawed. Good effort but I think some sort of weighting has to be had with regards to conditions, home and away, and the changes in difficulty of these era to era.

Mine does that to a large extent, actually. When measuring the quality of an opposition batting or bowling lineup, it splits up their performances into home and away and gives them a different quality rating depending on whether they're playing home or away at the time. For this reason I believe my it's very accurate in measuring away performances of individual players, because the conditions in the country of the match are automatically taken into account by just looking at the opposition home team's performances there. Individual home performances are a lot harder to measure though and aren't quite as accurate here because when you look an opposition away team's away performances, it takes into account a wide variety of conditions and not just that precise country.

There is no doubt these averages have their flaws; any widespread system like this will. My aim wasn't to create a flawless measure though, but to create a measure I believed was more accurate than scorebook averages in the vast majority of cases, which I'm quite content I have done.

 

[weldone]

As I mentioned earlier, and few others concurred, it's irrelevant who a bowler concedes runs to, but it is significant who he gets out. If bowler A gives fewer runs to top order and more runs to tail enders, the credit he deserves for first part is neutralized by the credit that must be taken away from him for second part. So, I really think it's irrelevant who you give runs to from a match perspective.

Scenario 1: Bowler X is bowling to Bradman. He concedes 10 runs, and in the next over bowler Y takes the wicket of Bradman. So, bowler X is saved. However, he then concedes 90 runs to Clarrie Grimmett before claiming his wicket (and it is also the only wicket X takes in the inning).

Scenario 2: Bowler Z is bowling to Bradman. There is no other bowler to save him from Bradman. Bradman scores a superb 200, and 90 of those runs are of Z's bowling. After making 200 runs Bradman gets run out. Bowler Z then concedes 10 runs to Grimmett before taking his wicket (and it is also the only wicket Z takes in the inning).

According to you, bowler X and bowler Z deserve same credit? As long as you think bowling to tailenders is easier than bowling to proper batsmen the answer should be NO. And if you don't think bowling to tailenders is easier than bowling to proper batsmen, then the only reason you created that thread maybe insanity.

 

[centurymaker]

Yeah, indeed. It's not supposed to be a ranking of quality as you need to take longevity into account as well - something I tired to do with one of my earlier batting lists. It ranks the players by the average quality of their performances during their careers, but you have to apply your own filter as to the length, consistency, decline etc of those careers.



Mine does that to a large extent, actually. When measuring the quality of an opposition batting or bowling lineup, it splits up their performances into home and away and gives them a different quality rating depending on whether they're playing home or away at the time. For this reason I believe my it's very accurate in measuring away performances of individual players, because the conditions in the country of the match are automatically taken into account by just looking at the opposition home team's performances there. Individual home performances are a lot harder to measure though and aren't quite as accurate here because when you look an opposition away team's away performances, it takes into account a wide variety of conditions and not just that precise country.

There is no doubt these averages have their flaws; any widespread system like this will. My aim wasn't to create a flawless measure though, but to create a measure I believed was more accurate than scorebook averages in the vast majority of cases, which I'm quite content I have done.

good post mate.

 

[Ikki]

Yeah, but it is not claimed that the rankings from these methods are cast in stone, and any of them are the perfect measures.

And I didn't claim that you claimed that. Although, you do seem to tout them at every opportunity .

Mine does that to a large extent, actually. When measuring the quality of an opposition batting or bowling lineup, it splits up their performances into home and away and gives them a different quality rating depending on whether they're playing home or away at the time. For this reason I believe my it's very accurate in measuring away performances of individual players, because the conditions in the country of the match are automatically taken into account by just looking at the opposition home team's performances there. Individual home performances are a lot harder to measure though and aren't quite as accurate here because when you look an opposition away team's away performances, it takes into account a wide variety of conditions and not just that precise country.

I think it's incredibly important to get a good gauge on how home performances should be judged, especially considering this one condition (meaning, country) will be roughly half the tests a player will play. One bowler may have far better home conditions than another, or a batsman having far worse home conditions than another, and the aggregate of matches are much more likely to change their career ratios than a handful of Tests in various countries.

 

[Prince EWS]

I think it's incredibly important to get a good gauge on how home performances should be judged, especially considering this one condition (meaning, country) will be roughly half the tests a player will play. One bowler may have far better home conditions than another, or a batsman having far worse home conditions than another, and the aggregate of matches are much more likely to change their career ratios than a handful of Tests in various countries.

Indeed. The variables involved make it almost impossible to measure home conditions correctly though.

 

[ankitj]

Scenario 1: Bowler X is bowling to Bradman. He concedes 10 runs, and in the next over bowler Y takes the wicket of Bradman. So, bowler X is saved. However, he then concedes 90 runs to Clarrie Grimmett before claiming his wicket (and it is also the only wicket X takes in the inning).

Scenario 2: Bowler Z is bowling to Bradman. There is no other bowler to save him from Bradman. Bradman scores a superb 200, and 90 of those runs are of Z's bowling. After making 200 runs Bradman gets run out. Bowler Z then concedes 10 runs to Grimmett before taking his wicket (and it is also the only wicket Z takes in the inning).

According to you, bowler X and bowler Z deserve same credit? As long as you think bowling to tailenders is easier than bowling to proper batsmen the answer should be NO. And if you don't think bowling to tailenders is easier than bowling to proper batsmen, then the only reason you created that thread maybe insanity.

You have reduced the whole question to a sample of one, which obviously leaves you exposed to oddities no matter which measure you use.

The example of X you gave cannot keep happening for 20 matches over and over. If bowler Y is good enough to dismiss Bradman cheaply again and again, he can't keep failing to remove Grimmet consistently, giving him a chance to score 90+ runs on average. Or if indeed this pattern keeps repeating then value of Grimmet' wicket would be more than Bradman's and that's how it ashould be!

Leaving aside bowler Y whose performance in the given example is an oddity, we basically assume if bowler X gives 90 runs on average before getting Grimmet out then he would give 900 runs before dismissing Bradman. It assumes a linear relationship between a batsman's average and his value which to me is not an absurd assumption

 

[NUFAN]

Good work Prince.

I had never even heard of CAG Russell before, probably cause he misses out on the minimum of 20 innings qualification that you find in batting records.

It's quite interesting to see Border ahead of both Ponting and Waugh.

 

[NUFAN]

Also Keith Miller >> Imran Khan for both batting and bowling!

Sobers 4.6 ahead of Kallis batting but 2.1 behind in batting suggests they are so close.

 

[weldone]

You have reduced the whole question to a sample of one, which obviously leaves you exposed to oddities no matter which measure you use.

The example of X you gave cannot keep happening for 20 matches over and over. If bowler Y is good enough to dismiss Bradman cheaply again and again, he can't keep failing to remove Grimmet consistently, giving him a chance to score 90+ runs on average. Or if indeed this pattern keeps repeating then value of Grimmet' wicket would be more than Bradman's and that's how it ashould be!

Leaving aside bowler Y whose performance in the given example is an oddity, we basically assume if bowler X gives 90 runs on average before getting Grimmet out then he would give 900 runs before dismissing Bradman. It assumes a linear relationship between a batsman's average and his value which to me is not an absurd assumption

Ah, that's very smart! When I give one example to make you understand what I'm talking about you'll pretend to assume that I am implying that example will repete 5 million times! Nah, I hope you have understood my point and are just trying to save yourself. If not, then that's unfortunate.

 

[ankitj]

Ah, that's very smart! When I give one example to make you understand what I'm talking about you'll pretend to assume that I am implying that example will repete 5 million times! Nah, I hope you have understood my point and are just trying to save yourself. If not, then that's unfortunate.

You are being quite uncharacteristically condescending on this point

No, I am not trying to get away with fuzzy answers here. All I am saying is that a pattern like the one you mention cannot happen even 5 times or so because that's precluded by the very fact that Bradman averages 100 and Grimmet 10-20 (whatever the exact number is). So really, that can't affect any bowlers numbers because it cannot happen often enough, or otherwise Bradman and Grimmet would average about the same. The method is self-correcting in that sense. It doesn't have an external reference - batting averages won't remain the same if bowlers had behaved differently against batsmen than they actually did.

I will take a valid criticism, (like not accounting for home-away etc for which there is no equally elegant and logical approach I know of) but your's simply isn't.

 

[ankitj]

Nah, I hope you have understood my point and are just trying to save yourself. If not, then that's unfortunate.

I am just as entitled to say that about you too, i.e. not at all