'Class is forever-Form is Temporary' Are there any exceptions?

[Autobahn]

Err when did Atherton have any class to start with?

If he had class he wouldn't have been so utterly dominated whenever he came up against Warne, McGrath, Ambrose, Walsh etc. Look at what the earlier example - Vaughan and see what he did against Australia and you'll see there's a huge gulf in class between him and Atherton.

True i just think he went downhill and really struggled against them when he became the captain, he's said himself that he didn't train much at all when he became captain, due to the demands of captaincy.

 

[Chubb]

Some stats:

Grant Flower
After 59 innings: 39.59
Rest of career (64 more innings): 23.70
He crossed 50 once every 4 or so innings for those first 59 innings (also had a conversion rate of 38.46%). He then crossed fifty once ever 8 innings for the rest of his career (conversion rate of 14.29%).

Also noteworthy...
Alistair Campbell
After 18 innings: 41.17
Rest of career (91 more innings): 23.71
He crossed 50 roughly twice in each 5 innings for those first 18 innings. He then crossed fifty once every 7 innings for the rest of his career.

yeah Grant fell off totally in tests from 1999 onwards- he was and is still a good one-day batsman though.

I think that Grant's problem was injuries, he has a lot of problems with his joints and also his confidence went as soon as he started finding it tougher. Alistair is an odd case, apparently in full flow he didn't lose anything in comparison to the best batsmen in the world. What may have happened is that when he started off averaging 40 like that he was a promising young player without to much pressure because Zimbabwe had Houghton, both Flowers, Arnott and a few more besides, and he couldn't handle the pressure when told to step up. He was a good one-day batsman, too.

 

[steds]

Err when did Atherton have any class to start with?

If he had class he wouldn't have been so utterly dominated whenever he came up against Warne, McGrath, Ambrose, Walsh etc. Look at what the earlier example - Vaughan and see what he did against Australia and you'll see there's a huge gulf in class between him and Atherton.

Vaughan only performed like a top quality batsman for little more than a year.

 

[Langeveldt]

Khaled Mahmud

The only player who doesnt have to worry about both class and form

 

[steds]

Khaled Mahmud

The only player who doesnt have to worry about both class and form

Apart from Thami Tsolekile.

 

[Richard]

Reminds me of Mark Vermeulen... just finding his feet on the international stage with a hundred v. WIndies and then top-edged a bouncer into his head. Had to have steel plates put in, was told to give up but came back, but could no longer play to his old strengths, on the back foot, and is now nowhere near as good as he was and probably never will be again. Also a candidate for the "Cricket's Greatest Whingers" thread.

Vermeulen has fractured his skull twice in the same way IIRR?

 

[Richard]

Apart from Thami Tsolekile.

Find me a definitively better wicketkeeper then?

 

[Richard]

Mike Atherton.

He always seemed to struggle and be out of form when he was captain, i remember watching him on test match special and he always had this sort of depressed look on his face and and i remember not being susprised when he got out for single figures. Plus his cruel back problems didn't help.

Not true, not at all. Atherton was a seriously good batsman for most of the time before 2001.
Of course, his back caused him to have 3 shocking series (West Indies 1991, Zimbabwe 1996\97, Australia 1998\99) but generally the captaincy enhanced his batting, not degraded it.

 

[Langeveldt]

Find me a definitively better wicketkeeper then?

Tatenda Taibu

 

[Richard]

Err when did Atherton have any class to start with?

If he had class he wouldn't have been so utterly dominated whenever he came up against Warne, McGrath, Ambrose, Walsh etc. Look at what the earlier example - Vaughan and see what he did against Australia and you'll see there's a huge gulf in class between him and Atherton.

When did Atherton have any class to start with? Well, when he was scoring runs against pretty much all the bowlers he's faced, as he did between 1990 and 2000.
Of course, we wouldn't really expect you to notice that.

 

[Richard]

Tatenda Taibu

As good, certainly, but definately not better.

 

[Langeveldt]

Tsolekile is good at hockey, I'll give him that

 

[Richard]

Some stats:

Grant Flower
After 59 innings: 39.59
Rest of career (64 more innings): 23.70
He crossed 50 once every 4 or so innings for those first 59 innings (also had a conversion rate of 38.46%). He then crossed fifty once ever 8 innings for the rest of his career (conversion rate of 14.29%).

Also noteworthy...
Alistair Campbell
After 18 innings: 41.17
Rest of career (91 more innings): 23.71
He crossed 50 roughly twice in each 5 innings for those first 18 innings. He then crossed fifty once every 7 innings for the rest of his career.

The fact is there are loads and loads of these players.
Some are noted widely, some not (Botham for instance).
Most players' careers go through phases - some can be divided into 3 parts - terrible, excellent, terrible (Mushtaq Ahmed and Gatting the two most obvious examples).
Some start well and fade away, most players start poorly and end poorly, some take ages to find their feet (Stephen Waugh, Tendulkar, the like), but there are loads and loads of examples.
'Tis why overall career averages aren't really too meaningful - especially if someone's had a lengthy career - and why engines like StatsGuru are such wonderful tools.

 

[Richard]

Tsolekile is good at hockey, I'll give him that

And as good a wicketkeeper - at least standing back - as I've seen, too.

 

[Chubb]

Vermeulen has fractured his skull twice in the same way IIRR?

Yeah, first time was facing Travis Friend in the nets during the Super Six in 2003, then during the VB Series in 2004. He was the only Zimbabwean who used a new-style helmet

 

[Richard]

The helmet was to blame?

 

[Langeveldt]

The helmet was to blame?

Well now absolutely everyone wears them, including me! So lets hope not..

 

[Chubb]

Vermy may have prefered his visor to be further from the lid than others, but it's incredibly rare for that to happen, and to happen to the same person inside two years, well, either Vermy was unlucky or the helmet was to blame. Certainly he bats with the old style now.

I got an old-style, though I rarely use a helmet anymore, partly because of the Vermeulen incident.

 

[Richard]

Certainly I struggle to believe anyone would be willing to wear a helmet where the ball can fit between the grille. But people do, and someone had to get into trouble with it sometime.
Indeed, Strauss was very fortunate Vettori was bowling when the ball slipped into his helmet in his debut Test.

 

[Langeveldt]

Certainly I struggle to believe anyone would be willing to wear a helmet where the ball can fit between the grille. But people do, and someone had to get into trouble with it sometime.
Indeed, Strauss was very fortunate Vettori was bowling when the ball slipped into his helmet in his debut Test.

I have a very large gap between the grille and helmet..

The benifit of the better vision offsets the risk of the ball sneaking through, if you think about it you have to be pretty unlucky to have one go clean through