Championless Trophy? - stop the bs and go

[WhatisRight]

By the way about the bhutto assassination. I would just like to tell you that she herself selected the type of security she wanted for the rally, musharraf was giving her alot more protection since in these political rallies you cant really take any risk. And even though they warned bhutto not to get out of her car becuase thats where it became very easy for the assassins to kill her since there were hundreds and hundreds of people surrounding the car and no matter what sort of security you have, its impossible to stop that many people rushing towards the car.

 

[Burgey]

I've no trouble accepting what yourself and Dasa have said about the Bhutto assasination, and apologise for misrepresenting that part of the argument . Without wanting to sound trite about it, what a stupid thing for her to do!!!!!

 

[four_or_six]

Good points too .
Just trying to think of it as a player - apart from (maybe) Ponting, has any member of the current side been there before? I imagine there'd be very few, so they have to get their info via media and via security.
T'would be good if the ICC stepped in, though I dunno if they'd ever have the stones to do so.

There's been two A-tours to Pakistan... in 2005 and 2007. Players that were on those include Watson, Johnson, Bracken, M Hussey, D Hussey, Haddin, White, Hopes, Cullen, Noffke, Voges, Ronchi aaaaaaaaaaand... Mick Lewis.

Edit: Though, admittedly, the interest in an A-tour is completely different... but in the sense of that they've actually been to the country then yes.

 

[Burgey]

There's been two A-tours to Pakistan... in 2005 and 2007. Players that were on those include Watson, Johnson, Bracken, M Hussey, D Hussey, Haddin, White, Hopes, Cullen, Noffke, Voges, Ronchi aaaaaaaaaaand... Mick Lewis.

Edit: Though, admittedly, the interest in an A-tour is completely different... but in the sense of that they've actually been to the country then yes.

Very good point that - i actually wrote about that back in February or March - must be late, I forgot about it!!!
Cheers. Doug Bollinger also went iirc.
Mick Lewis - oh the past - leave me alone!!!

 

[WhatisRight]

Good points too .
Just trying to think of it as a player - apart from (maybe) Ponting, has any member of the current side been there before? I imagine there'd be very few, so they have to get their info via media and via security.
T'would be good if the ICC stepped in, though I dunno if they'd ever have the stones to do so.

The ICC is trying its best to convince players and teams to come to pakistan. whatever decision they come to i will respect that becuase at the end of the day they will also be blamed IF anything goes wrong. So they wont take any decision untill they are completely satisfied and if theres any small little doubt they have they wont allow the tour to take place in pak any further.

 

[four_or_six]

Very good point that - i actually wrote about that back in February or March - must be late, I forgot about it!!!
Cheers. Doug Bollinger also went iirc.

Yep, he's there on the scorecards from 2007.

 

[Burgey]

Yep, he's there on the scorecards from 2007.

Had a great series over there. Really announced himself for the next season.

Wonder if that record on the subcontinent will put him in good stead for Indian selection (in the team I mean, I think he's a moral for the squad barring injury)?

 

[four_or_six]

Had a great series over there. Really announced himself for the next season.

Wonder if that record on the subcontinent will put him in good stead for Indian selection (in the team I mean, I think he's a moral for the squad barring injury)?

Would think Noffke is ahead of him in the queue for now, tbh.

 

[Son Of Coco]

What's the link between my post and the link you pasted in your post?

If you've got trouble making the link (and reading the rest of your posts I suspected you might) then it's not worth getting into a discussion about.

 

[WhatisRight]

Nathan Hauritz, the Australian offspinner, has echoed Shane Watson's feelings on the Champions Trophy in Pakistan, saying he didn't care where he played as long he got to represent his country.

Watson had said he'd play anywhere but some Australian players, including Andrew Symonds, expressed their reservations on touring Pakistan, which had two bomb attacks on its cities in the past two weeks.

However Hauritz, who was named in Australia's 30 probables for the Champions Trophy, said getting the chance to play for the national team didn't happen all the time. "You can go to a number of places in this world that are dangerous," Hauritz, who last played for Australia in 2004, told the Sydney-based Daily Telegraph. "But at the end of the day it's not my call and it's up to Cricket Australia. I'm sure they will do everything they can to make sure it's safe.''


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So thats exactly what i have been saying. Thats the sort of thing i wana see from players, they should trust what there security delegation decide.

 

[FRAZ]

That's spot on mate, the problem is though, your employer provides a security expert to do a recce on the place. I don't see how the players can be expected to do any more than rely on that expert. Whether his info is right based on what people who live in that part of the world know is a different thing, but I don't think you can realistically expect a 20-something year old young man to make his own inquiries in a way which will be better resourced than those of the board.
I don't know how breaking a country down into its regions necessarily works for someone going to that country as an outsider. If, say bombs went off in a short space of time in Adelaide, Sydney, Brisbane and Canberra, would someone overseas think to themselves, "Ok, I'm going to Melbourne so I'll be right?" Would that person's family think that? Or for that matter their employer? I wouldn't blame people for being reluctant to come here if that happened, no matter how safe I felt in my home town (mind you, you can never be too safe in Melbourne ).
I just think it's easy for us to consider it in the abstract. Would be much harder for the players.

Well you are right in some ways too . But let me tell you that ever since I was a child ,I heard stories of cons and notorious criminals running away from authorities and taking refuge in Waziristan (Wana area) . I have been hearing that governement , Police and even Army has no access to that area and that area has been a home to heroin production and smuggling . It was a common practice that cars were stolen and then the thieves used to call the victim's home asking to bring ransom and take his car away . You think it was possible in other areas ? It was like a no man's land for Pakistan and these guys were and are really strong . The problem is that now they are allies of world's other strongest illegal organization and i.e. AlQaeda and Pakistani authorities for the first time in their life tried stepping into that area and actually they did cause considerable damage to them but what happened after wards? It was Pakistani politicians who got murdered and FIA , Army and Police are the victims . Well ! I don;'t know what to say but seriously world does not really understand the problems and they categorize every one there like the same . Sports and foreigners are a separate issue .

 

[godofcricket]

Well you are right in some ways too . But let me tell you that ever since I was a child ,I heard stories of cons and notorious criminals running away from authorities and taking refuge in Waziristan (Wana area) . I have been hearing that governement , Police and even Army has no access to that area and that area has been a home to heroin production and smuggling . It was a common practice that cars were stolen and then the thieves used to call the victim's home asking to bring ransom and take his car away . You think it was possible in other areas ? It was like a no man's land for Pakistan and these guys were and are really strong . The problem is that now they are allies of world's other strongest illegal organization and i.e. AlQaeda and Pakistani authorities for the first time in their life tried stepping into that area and actually they did cause considerable damage to them but what happened after wards? It was Pakistani politicians who got murdered and there is FIA , Army and Police are the victims. Well ! I don;'t know what to say but seriously world does not really understand the problems and they categorize every one there like the same . Sports and foreigners are a separate issue .

Considerable damage? I think you really need to get this fact right becuase they havent gained anything other than killing their own people. Tell me which president sends army to fight your own people? As you said no one has ever tried to control that area so why would musharraf do that is beyond me, did he think hes got some super power? He could have done it anyother way then using force becuase forget pakistani army for a minute, even the british army during the british rule couldnt control that area and its beyond me how musharraf could have possibily thought he could gain control of that area.

I strongly believe that if pakistan wants any peace in the future than they need to withdraw the army from that area immediatley, they have made life a misery for people their and this is causing a huge amount of outrage amoungst people. Dialouge is the only solution.

I agree with last couple of your sentences.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Nathan Hauritz, the Australian offspinner, has echoed Shane Watson's feelings on the Champions Trophy in Pakistan, saying he didn't care where he played as long he got to represent his country.
Watson had said he'd play anywhere but some Australian players, including Andrew Symonds, expressed their reservations on touring Pakistan, which had two bomb attacks on its cities in the past two weeks.

However Hauritz, who was named in Australia's 30 probables for the Champions Trophy, said getting the chance to play for the national team didn't happen all the time. "You can go to a number of places in this world that are dangerous," Hauritz, who last played for Australia in 2004, told the Sydney-based Daily Telegraph. "But at the end of the day it's not my call and it's up to Cricket Australia. I'm sure they will do everything they can to make sure it's safe.''


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So thats exactly what i have been saying. Thats the sort of thing i wana see from players, they should trust what there security delegation decide.

Of course he doesn't...it may be his one and only chance

 

[chaminda_00]

That's spot on mate, the problem is though, your employer provides a security expert to do a recce on the place. I don't see how the players can be expected to do any more than rely on that expert. Whether his info is right based on what people who live in that part of the world know is a different thing, but I don't think you can realistically expect a 20-something year old young man to make his own inquiries in a way which will be better resourced than those of the board.
I don't know how breaking a country down into its regions necessarily works for someone going to that country as an outsider. If, say bombs went off in a short space of time in Adelaide, Sydney, Brisbane and Canberra, would someone overseas think to themselves, "Ok, I'm going to Melbourne so I'll be right?" Would that person's family think that? Or for that matter their employer? I wouldn't blame people for being reluctant to come here if that happened, no matter how safe I felt in my home town (mind you, you can never be too safe in Melbourne ).
I just think it's easy for us to consider it in the abstract. Would be much harder for the players.

I don't think it would be that hard to get accurate information from guys that live there or have played there recently. Half the national side got coached by Lawson at NSW. Most of the guys would know some of the guys that play in Pakistan side or guys that have recently played matches in Pakistan. I doubt it would be that hard for them to get on phone and ask someone they know who been there recently or lives there what the real situation is. Rather then rely on security group that goes there for two weeks and is likely to just go to worst parts where no cricket is played.

For your average guy who has no contract with guys from Pakistan or someone who has been there recently. Fair enough you have no choice but to lesson to poor security and media info. But that is not really the case for Australian cricket players.

Also you do need to draw a line in sand for most countries like this. There always some places that have regular fighting and others that are untouched. You can't just blanket all of Pakistan as unsafe cus what happens in north.

 

[FRAZ]

Considerable damage? I think you really need to get this fact right becuase they havent gained anything other than killing their own people. Tell me which president sends army to fight your own people? As you said no one has ever tried to control that area so why would musharraf do that is beyond me, did he think hes got some super power? He could have done it anyother way then using force becuase forget pakistani army for a minute, even the british army during the british rule couldnt control that area and its beyond me how musharraf could have possibily thought he could gain control of that area.

I strongly believe that if pakistan wants any peace in the future than they need to withdraw the army from that area immediatley, they have made life a misery for people their and this is causing a huge amount of outrage amoungst people. Dialouge is the only solution.

I agree with last couple of your sentences.

Making some con to sit on an electrical chair means killing my own people ? A rapist or a mislead fighter has to be dealt with because matter is being a criminal and not being my own people .
Yeah there was considerable damage caused by the Pak army . And whatever I said is spot on and I have examples to prove that .

 

[FRAZ]

I strongly believe that if pakistan wants any peace in the future than they need to withdraw the army from that area immediatley, they have made life a misery for people their and this is causing a huge amount of outrage amoungst people. Dialouge is the only solution.

Ask any mislead youth there that who is their enemy ? The answer will be USA and Pakistan . And who is their lover ? OBL respectively .
Watch any car (a stolen one from Lahore or Karachi may be ) and you will see the stickers saying "Killer of non believers" . I am not saying any drawing room or air conditioned BS and I have known people and who were two faced .
Don't get me into this and I guess a trouble maker should be dealt with and strongly .

 

[FRAZ]

Talking about killing my own people and dialogs ! How many years of dialogs were needed for Bugti ?
I mean I heard a Mazari saying that he can live with a pig but can't live with a Punjabi . I mean if it's a matter which needs dialogs then I guess we are wasting our time. I never saw racism or stupidity in my native village or city in Punjab and Can you guarantee my life if I'll visit Wana or Bugti land in Baluchistan ?
You know why India has lesser family based BS ? Because ! they nationalized lands instead of industries in early 70's and the landlord leaders in Pakistan destroyed the whole industry by nationalizing it !!!!!
Peco factory is just an example but they really were on top of every other relative company and before nationalization they were working well where workers were putting more hours and they were well groomed and they were not involved in just drinking and sleeping and after nationalization there were just paan spits every where and there was no work there .
Whatever Musharraf is doing is just safer and I feel comfortable with that and I hate drama queens who are just destroying Pakistan and that's it . Finish them and that's it . Pests have no right to live .......

 

[godofcricket]

FRAZ i will come back to this very soon.

 

[Matt79]

To put it bluntly,what they're probably afraid of is this (doing the best I can as an outsider):

Every week there are reports about bombs going off in Pakistan - every week. Whether they're right or not I don't know, but I read them and I dare say the players do too. When it happened in the lead up to the elections and the test series, there were people first of all saying "It's not in the same cities as the players will be". Then there were bombings in the same areas, and it was "It was in a military intallation only". Then it was a civilian area, and it was "Well, they'll have the same security as a head of state". Then Bhutto was blown up and it was "Well, players have never been targetted before". The margin kept getting narrower and narrower.

Tie that in with the fact that the nutbags who are exploding these things are the same people who have announced Australians will be targets because of their involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. Then tie it in with the fact that those who are allied to these nutbags have already attacked Bali and killed Australians with bombs before.

It's in that context that the players are making their decisions. Last year I nearly had to go to Lahore for a case, and the very thought of it scared the **** out of me - maybe I'm a coward (we can't all be as tough as you guys over there who act like they fought their way up to Poizieres at the Somme every day for all your lives), but there's no way I'd go there, as an Australian, not now with the way things are.

I'm not trying to offend you in saying that, but it's the way I feel about it. I don't blame the players for feeling that way either. It's all well to say they didn't come home in 05 from England, and it's a valid point, but the fact is there weren't bombs going off over there each week at that time, like there apparently are in Pakistan at the moment.

So don't criticise players if they don't want to go, and don't call them ignorant either, because they're getting informed advice from security people, and no doubt they're reading the reports as well (unless you're suggesting the reports are made up).

It's a tough one, it really is. I'd like to see the CT go ahead as well, with everyone there. But to say, as the thread title does, that the concerns are "BS" is wrong. There's crap going on there that people aren't comfortable with, abd people are dying all the time.

That's not BS. That's real.

Absolutely agree with everything in this post.

???

...and getting facts right might be useful before ranting. Bhutto turned down the security arrangements offered to her as people in here have already said. It's also simply not good enough to say something like:
...the attacks in Bali most probably had next to nothing to do with what has been going on in parts of Pakistan, and it's the sort of conclusion one can see in the tabloids to just say all these 'nutbags' are the same, thus it's not safe anywhere in Pakistan.

Personally I reckon it's fine to criticise the players if they don't want to go, they most likely are ignorant and the 'security people' (as SS has implied, having knowledge of the industry himself) can hardly be relied upon to provide the full story.

This isn't personally directed at you alone Dasa, but I think its dishonest and condescending - what's worse in a dishonest way - that everytime someone points out that Pakistan or similar is a hazardous environment on this board they get told they don't know what they're talking about and accused of being scaredy cat headless chickens. Frankly I trust the Australian government a hell of a lot more than anyone who posts on these boards or the opinion of the Pakistan government - and people can be offended by that, but its the hard truth in my view. People can throw accusations of political or even cultural bias if they want to, that doesn't make themselves right. I don't really care about the outcome of this issue, but I find the tone that lots of posters here adopt re this issue insulting and in some cases telling of their own ignorance.

 

[silentstriker]

If they are logical reasons and its on advice by security experts, why do they go to Sri Lanka? You sure its not something else thats stopping people from going to Pakistan?