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Can South AFrica end Australia's 13 year run as the best test team ?

pup11

International Coach
It is quite sad that we cannot find a decent Spinner in the whole of Australia now since the departures of Shane Warne and Stuart MacGill. If Australia decide to look for a spinner however they should probably pick a player like Beau Casson, Dan Cullen or Nathan Hauritz. There are not many other options out there so it is crucial that we make the right decision when it come time to make it.
I think Casson is the best bet atm, he is very raw but he has got all the variations and he does get good spin too, so there is something there to work with, patience needs to kept with him, because there are gonna be days when he might get hammered and look totally out of place, but if he is groomed then he could do a good job as a spin option.
As far as the series is concerned i think it would be brilliant series, but i still favour Australia to win the series, but they sure would have to work hard for it.
 

pup11

International Coach
I am honestly not following you around and shooting you down. But both Cullen and especially Hauritz are utter rubbish in the longer version of the game. Casson deserves to be in the squad I suppose, but McGain is a better bowler. Other than that, there are no options atm.
McGain's age goes against him and its better to punt with a young guy like Casson, who has a chance to improve as a bowler over the years.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I vaguely remember reading some analysis of swing that said the ball needs to be travelling below a certain speed to move laterally through the air. It would make sense to me, because the ball slows down in flight and hence swings a lot later when faster bowlers try to swing it. Looking at Flintoff's crazy outswinging yorker to Kallis, for example, the ball moved dead straight but then bent away at the last moment as if swerving to avoid his bat.
Hence, faster bowlers need to bowl the ball fuller to achieve swing, but when they do it goes late and is therefore more dangerous. Most ultra-quick men prefer to bowl back of a length, which explains the shortage of 90mph-plus swing bowlers.
I'm not entirely sure about all of that - as a rule, you have to pitch full as a bowler to get the ball to swing unless you're very tall. Hardly anyone can swing the ball from "back of a length". Andy Caddick is the only one who comes to mind that did that particularly well.

I agree with some of what you say, but I also think a huge factor in the lack of 90mph+ swing bowlers is the fact that so many put such effort in to get their pace up that they lose their seam-position. And a poor seam position = no swing.

In any case, it's not like 90mph bowlers are two-a-penny. But there's plenty of examples of bowlers of that pace (or almost certainly of that pace) who could and did swing the ball - Ray Lindwall, Fred Trueman, Jeff Thomson, Malcolm Marshall, Waqar Younis, Allan Donald, Shoaib Akhtar, Brett Lee, Simon Jones. And these are just a few examples - there are many more you could go into depth about.
 

Uppercut

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I'm not entirely sure about all of that - as a rule, you have to pitch full as a bowler to get the ball to swing unless you're very tall. Hardly anyone can swing the ball from "back of a length". Andy Caddick is the only one who comes to mind that did that particularly well.
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Aye, but when someone like M Hoggard bowls now, the ball starts going almost straight out of his hand. Compare with James Anderson, who bowls a lot faster, and the ball tends to go late once it's slowed down. So there might be something in that.
 

Smith108

Cricket Spectator
Hoggard was at his best when he swung it late like Anderson, when he had that nippy pace in the 2005 ashes.
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
No. Dawson had a very poor bowling-action and spun the ball possibly less than John Emburey. Added to which, he didn't get any drift either.

Honestly, people seem to think Harris doesn't spin the ball half a rev per second. It's ridiculous. He's no threat on a non-turner, but he's not some sort of worst spinner in history. It was initially thought, not without justification, that he was SA's best spinner since readmission.
Yeah agreed.. Harris seems to have had a load of pain unleashed on him.. Not everyone can be a world beater, and it's even harder for a SLA bowler.. He still I think has a better bowling average than everyones favourite cricketer, Panesar..
 

Swervy

International Captain
Yeah agreed.. Harris seems to have had a load of pain unleashed on him.. Not everyone can be a world beater, and it's even harder for a SLA bowler.. He still I think has a better bowling average than everyones favourite cricketer, Panesar..
really surprised his average is so low to be honest. Looks a shocker to me, but I am willing to give the fella a chance
 

Smith108

Cricket Spectator
Yeah agreed.. Harris seems to have had a load of pain unleashed on him.. Not everyone can be a world beater, and it's even harder for a SLA bowler.. He still I think has a better bowling average than everyones favourite cricketer, Panesar..
Although he is not a prolific wicket taker like Panesar can be. Probably because they both play different roles in the team.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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The only people who've ever swung the ball in Perth are blokes prepared to bowl into the Doctor late in the day. Terry Aldermann, Damien Fleming, etc. Couldn't imagine any of the Saffies being pleased about let alone willing to willing to cut back on pace a bit to get the movement. Takes a certain sort who can dispense with the macho crap.
I haven't read much past this post, so I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but I think that Kallis might be the man for this job. On the evidence of the present series in England, if not anything before it. Kallis seems to be putting in the hard yards in hope of success. If he continues to bowl with such focus and drive, he could be the key for South Africa with the ball, as strange as that sounds.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
I haven't read much past this post, so I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but I think that Kallis might be the man for this job. On the evidence of the present series in England, if not anything before it. Kallis seems to be putting in the hard yards in hope of success. If he continues to bowl with such focus and drive, he could be the key for South Africa with the ball, as strange as that sounds.
Agree with this, all throughout his carer he has struck me as this kind of bowler.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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My point isn't about Kallis being slow. But I believe he's the most likely of the South African pace attack to sacrifice speed for movement.
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
Pfft, few months ago everyone was harking on about him being a selfish bowler only willing to contribute against a poor standard of opposition..
 

tooextracool

International Coach
You mean in NZ? Very different conditions, bowlers who succeed in NZ generally get pummelled in Aus and vice versa. Steyn has played two ODI's in Aus and, although some time ago now, went for 10+ per over in each of them. Personally, he's going to struggle; if he tries just throwing the ball up and swinging, I reckon he'll go the journey no matter how quick he bowls. The pace bowlers who've done best in Aus have always been guys who hit the seam or are extraordinarily accurate.
Was referring to the series in Australia actually. Bowled with pace and venom and was arguably the best fast bowler on either side. I agree with your description of the kind of fast bowler that succeeds in Australia, and it fits Nel's description perfectly. If Morkely sorts out his accuracy issues, or if it just so happens that the moon is perfectly aligned with his star sign, he will be a real handful in Australian conditions.
Although, saying that some swing bowlers have had success at the Gabba and Sydney and Im not really sure what the itinerary is like but it might depend on where they are playing exactly.
 

Top_Cat

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I'm not entirely sure about all of that - as a rule, you have to pitch full as a bowler to get the ball to swing unless you're very tall. Hardly anyone can swing the ball from "back of a length". Andy Caddick is the only one who comes to mind that did that particularly well.

I agree with some of what you say, but I also think a huge factor in the lack of 90mph+ swing bowlers is the fact that so many put such effort in to get their pace up that they lose their seam-position. And a poor seam position = no swing.

In any case, it's not like 90mph bowlers are two-a-penny. But there's plenty of examples of bowlers of that pace (or almost certainly of that pace) who could and did swing the ball - Ray Lindwall, Fred Trueman, Jeff Thomson, Malcolm Marshall, Waqar Younis, Allan Donald, Shoaib Akhtar, Brett Lee, Simon Jones. And these are just a few examples - there are many more you could go into depth about.
It's physics, mate. Yes those blokes swung the ball but of the ones I've seen, the swing is usually quite late and it was the combination of a reasonable amount of swing + sheer pace that did for the batsmen they were bowling to. In terms of lateral movement, there's no physical way someone bowling 90+mph is going to swing the ball as much as someone bowling much slower.

People have tried many times to explain swing in terms of Magnus Effect which is wrong because it really only applies to drift in spin bowling; pace bowlers don't put enough back-spin on the ball for it to take effect. It actually depends on whether you're talking about conventional swing or reverse swing exactly what phenomenon comes into play. It's pretty difficult to find any recent work on this but in terms of conventional swing, it's been found years ago the optimum speed for gaining maximum swing is only about 80km/h. Quicker than that and the effect is gradually degraded proportionally with the speed (see Nature 303, 787-788 "Factors affecting cricket ball swing", Mehta et al). It's why quick bowlers who rely on swing are usually less effective with the new ball; the two W's were always considered better with the old ball and that's explained by....

Reverse swing. Different fluid flows occur with an old ball on either side and this is where Bernoulli's Principle comes into play. Without going into too much detail, on a cricket ball which has a really rough side, essentially the difference in flows across both sides creates a pressure differential and subsequent change in air-speeds on either side, pushing it in the direction of the side with smoother flow (the shiny side). The faster you bowl, the later the swing. And, as I said above, the faster you bowl with convention swing, the less swing you'll get. Not none, less.

I haven't read much past this post, so I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but I think that Kallis might be the man for this job. On the evidence of the present series in England, if not anything before it. Kallis seems to be putting in the hard yards in hope of success. If he continues to bowl with such focus and drive, he could be the key for South Africa with the ball, as strange as that sounds.
The only issue I have with that is workload. He won't be able to bowl for long periods into the Doctor and then bat and play big innings'. Considering he's a swing bowler, he's a decent candidate, though.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Hoggard was at his best when he swung it late like Anderson, when he had that nippy pace in the 2005 ashes.
Seems strange that he was rather ordinary for most of that series then. The whole nippy pace thing is overrated. If it is possible to do an average pace for that series and for his last full series in SL, I doubt that there would be too much difference.
 

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