Can a bowler who averages 30+ be considered as greats ?

[Avada Kedavra]

I have often wondered about the status of bowlers like Lee and Harbhajan who both have 300+ wickets, but also average 30 or more. Can a bowler who averages 30+ be *great* ? Are the two mentioned bowlers great ?

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Can bowlers who average*

 

[oitoitoi]

No

 

[0RI0N]

NO
If you call Harbhajan and Lee Great bowlers then
you cannot call Murali and Marshall great.
You would have to find another word to describe Murali and Marshall.
Great is a word that get's thrown about too frequently as Sir Garfield Sobers said.

 

[Furball]

I have often wondered about the status of bowlers like Lee and Harbhajan who both have 300+ wickets, but also average 30 or more. Can a bowler who averages 30+ be *great* ? Are the two mentioned bowlers great ?

No. They are good bowlers who have served their sides well.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

NO
If you call Harbhajan and Lee Great bowlers then
you cannot call Murali and Marshall great.
You would have to find another word to describe Murali and Marshall.
Great is a word that get's thrown about too frequently as Sir Garfield Sobers said.

That's true. I don't think Lee and Harbhajan are greats either. However guys like Kapil, Botham and Kumble are seen as greats, and their averages are just less than 30.

 

[Jakester1288]

That's true. I don't think Lee and Harbhajan are greats either. However guys like Kapil, Botham and Kumble are seen as greats, and their averages are just less than 30.

Kapil and Botham also scored plenty of runs with the bat, and Kumble didn't do a bad job with the willow either.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Kapil and Botham also scored plenty of runs with the bat, and Kumble didn't do a bad job with the willow either.

I can understand Kapil and Botham. But are you telling me that Kumble is considered great because of his batting ?

 

[Goughy]

Re: The original question, I dont think it is impossible but I cant think of any player off the top of my head. It is a pretty big barrier to climb but it may be possible.

30+ is different to less than 30 but Larwood is an undoubted great and he averaged 28.35.

 

[zaremba]

Larwood is an undoubted great and he averaged 28.35.

Some do seem to doubt his greatness, probably because they've not read fredfertang's posts on the point carefully enough.

And the 28.35 is pretty good considering that he had to bowl on flat pitches against some awesome Crim batting. And all that whining must have been distracting as well...

 

[Goughy]

Some do seem to doubt his greatness, probably because they've not read fredfertang's posts on the point carefully enough.

And the 28.35 is pretty good considering that he had to bowl on flat pitches against some awesome Crim batting. And all that whining must have been distracting as well...

Link to post?

I dont need to be pursuaded of his 'greatness' but Im interested in reading fredfertang's perspective.

 

[GIMH]

cbf to check but didn't Beefy wind up averaging over 30

 

[Burgey]

No to both questions in the OP.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Botham averages 28-29, not 30. That's why I said just under 30.

 

[Matt79]

Botham, Kapil Dev and Kumble have some claim to greatness for reasns that have nothing to do with their batting. They're the exceptions that prove why you should treat averages as useful guides but not the be-all and end-all.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Botham, Kapil Dev and Kumble have some claim to greatness for reasns that have nothing to do with their batting. They're the exceptions that prove why you should treat averages as useful guides but not the be-all and end-all.

Definitely agree with that. Well said.

 

[AaronK]

I was looking at the stats of jimmy Anderson and Zaheer khan last night in the test matches.. i wondered why their teams continued to keep their faith on these two bowlers despite having an average of over 30. i mean it is understandable when u r looking at countries like india where they barely get any decent fast bowlers and zaheer has got to be the best one they have got ever since the emergance of Srinath..

but in England, i have always thought they have alot of bowler who can do better than anderson specialy in the test matches..

Soo no.. they might be considered average or maybe above average but can't be called the greats..

 

[Burgey]

Some do seem to doubt his greatness, probably because they've not read fredfertang's posts on the point carefully enough.

And the 28.35 is pretty good considering that he had to bowl on flat pitches against some awesome Crim batting. And all that whining must have been distracting as well...

No one whined about him in 1930 tbf. In fact, it's fair to say there would have been some Aussie disappointment when he was left out of a couple of Tests on that tour.
I still maintain Larwood is nowhere near as reviled in Australia as many English people think. Jardine, as the architect of Bodyline, is not thought highly of by many people here, but I would in no way say that about Larwood and Voce.

 

[GIMH]

I was looking at the stats of jimmy Anderson and Zaheer khan last night in the test matches.. i wondered why their teams continued to keep their faith on these two bowlers despite having an average of over 30. i mean it is understandable when u r looking at countries like india where they barely get any decent fast bowlers and zaheer has got to be the best one they have got ever since the emergance of Srinath..

but in England, i have always thought they have alot of bowler who can do better than anderson specialy in the test matches..

Soo no.. they might be considered average or maybe above average but can't be called the greats..

Yes, selectors should pick teams based on career averages, good point

Jimmeh's average around the 30 mark over the past few seasons, generally this is accepted as a time when he has improved hugely. But whatever, let's drop him now based on his average being high from the past.

Don't even know why I bother responding to this stuff, irks me when people say a player should be dropped because of their average even though they've been steadily improving it!

I suppose we should have dropped Flintoff in 2005 as well? After all, he averaged over 30 with the ball and well under 40 with the bat.

 

[jboss]

Yes! What about a spinner and what about factors that have not been mentioned like a terrible start to a career that finished off brilliantly. SR are more important to me than averages anyway especially in todays game where scored of over 600 happen every week.