• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Bradman, the greatest sportsperson ever?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ruckus

International Captain
This is probably gonna be super contentious ha, but I actually think Messi has the chance to be the greatest sportsperson ever. I've never seen a player with such a ridiculous natural ability and fluidity to their game. You watch footage of him playing when he was like <10 years old, and just think 'this guy is a freak of nature'. Pele can suck it ftr.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Yeah totally agree with this. It doesn't strike me as a coincidence that you more often get these freakish 'outlier' athletes in either fringe sports, like squash/darts etc., or sports in their relative nascency, like cricket in Bradman's era or Baseball in Ruth's. That's not to say those players weren't exceptional, but it does make it very difficult to compare with more popular sports or more modern equivalents. That's why I don't think you can say with any certainty something like " this player from a fringe sport statistically dominated their peers way more than MJ, so they must be better". Given MJ likely competed in a much more competitive sport (both by number and quality of participants), the smaller statistical margins he achieved should surely be weighted much higher.



Taking a HUGE leap there by terming the quality was not as good in his era.. The word quality is subjective in itself and for us to be judging quality from scorecards indicates how flawed our understanding of quality is.. So how will our judgement of who is the best be worth anything? :p
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Not sure why you're linking that - it was torn apart and discredited as the utterly unscientific joke it was when it appeared two years ago. It was extraordinary that such a flawed "study" received the publicity it did in the first place.


Probably because of the conclusions.. ;)
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I reckon the whole 'evolution throughout time' is a pretty moot point IMO. There is absolutely no way to tell how Bradman would fare today if he'd been brought up in the modern era with the modern game, and similarly no way to tell if a modern player would succeed if he were born and raised in the 1920s.

To put this in international relations (namely realist) terminology, since I have no other way to really express it, nobody gives a **** about absolute ability. If everyone's special no one's special. What matters is your ability relative to those around you.

So yes, every player in the modern era may, in absolute terms, be significantly better than Don Bradman. But you have a long list of blokes averaging around 50 that are the premier batsmen of the day - nobody stands out from the crowd by a hugely significant margin (on any given day, form notwithstanding, Amla = Cook = Clarke = de Villiers = Pietersen = Smith = Kallis = Tendulkar = Hussey or thereabouts). So in terms of relative ability, the top batsmen of today are remarkable close.

Let's apply this to the 1930s and 1940s. More-or-less, Hutton = Hammond = Headley = whoever else you want to throw in the analysis, but Hutton/Headley/Hammond definitely ≠ Bradman. In absolute terms, you can argue quite readily that Bradman is not as good as Tendulkar because of the evolution of the game and whatnot, but in relative terms, Bradman is that far ahead of anyone else that he is clearly the greatest.

Absolute ability means nothing if you have nothing to compare it to. It takes on value in how it stacks up compared to peers.


So in an ATG selection context, you look at who had that much relative ability compared to their peers, and use that as a measure of greatness - otherwise there is a huge argument that an English ATG XI would look like this:

Cook, Strauss, Trott, Pietersen, Bell, Flintoff, Prior, Broad, Swann, Anderson, Hoggard

simply because the game has evolved since 2000.


And logically extending Karan and Dhillon's arguments, Kohli is the best ODI player of all time for India.. :dry:
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Disagree. He would have ****ing dominated - his success was built on extraordinary natural hand-eye coordination, concentration and natural skill, which would serve him just as well nowadays.

Human beings didn't suddenly naturally get better at hitting a cricket ball in 1950 or so. That's the whole point.

Do think human beings did suddenly get naturally worse in understanding and discussing quality batsmanship though.. ;)
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
A lot of such stuff is written on Bradman, if you read a few articles on him, you'll say he is just extraordinary, the greatest ever, but if you see his videos, you would wonder if the bowlers which he faced are even good enough to feature in your club side.

So cricket improved since 1930 and yet videos have not? Those videos are good enough for you to judge players.. Hmmm.. using the nascent video technology of that era and judging the cricket of that era to be nascent.. Genius!!! :p
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
It's not the point I intended; let me clarify. Dominating in shield (or club) cricket relative to your peers by no means says anything definitive about how you will fare relative to your peers in test cricket - they are different games, with changes in the level of competition, amount of training etc. Just as Bradman era cricket is to the modern game imo.

No, where your analogy falls apart is that if a player domintes at FC level, he is expected to at least perform well at the Test level in the same era.. In this instance, the quality of the game does go up but the environment is the same.. Comparing international cricket of a past era to FC cricket of a more recent era is just plain stupid. And as I have pointed out before, while the game may have evolved, there is no sure way to conclude the game actually "improved".. I repeat, evolution, as a term is closer to adjustment, change and adaptability than to improvement..
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Na the games improved, ****ing deal with it.
On this, do you think that the great fast pitches of yesteryear like Perth haven't slowed at all and modern batsmen are just better equipped to deal with the challenges of playing there?
 

Ruckus

International Captain
The 1970's onwards can be grouped as part of the 'modern era' as far as I'm concerned. There have been more subtle changes in the game since then (some for better, some for worse), but overall the standard of cricket has probably remained roughly similar.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
The 1970's onwards can be grouped as part of the 'modern era' as far as I'm concerned. There have been more subtle changes in the game since then (some for better, some for worse), but overall the standard of cricket has probably remained roughly similar.
Has it ****, the introduction of helmets, ODI cricket and T20 cricket have made massive changes to the standard of batting.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top