Bowling attack with most variety!

[anzac]

experience alone counts for nothing - nor does one 'potent' bowler in a team - just ask Hadlee & Morrison.

'Great' bowling attacks have more than a couple of strings to their bows both in seam and spin. This way the batsmen do not get any breathing space either from 2 quicks at you or unrelenting pace at one end and world class spin attack at the other.

Both Australia and Pakistan have persistantly been able to throw real pace and world class spin throughout their attacks over the past decade or so. The rest have at best a 'pair' of bowlers as weapons.

The only exception to this in recent times was the great WIndies teams of the Sobers - LLoyd eras - when you have a bag full of world class quicks (both in pace and skill) you don't need world class spin.

Unless these youngsters have some 'real' pace then the Indian threat will remain with their spin attack. Their 'pace' attack will need to make the most of 'local' conditions to pose any threat.

It's like a footballer who can only kick with one foot - his other leg's just there for standing on!!!!

Do Akram and Younis still qualify as 'fast'??? What speeds are they bowling at these days??? I was under the impression they had both slowed down some from their peak & were good f/med pace at around mid 130k's. (I still agree that they have the best attack overall for both effectiveness and variety).

 

[wahindiawah]

Atleast as far as spinners are concerned, India is miles ahead of others.
Leggie,Offspinner and lt armer, India have it all!!

Aus have an ageing leggie.
Pak only have an off spinner
Eng/NZ...not worth mentioning.

Indian pacers will hopefully prove the critics wrong, i do think that India will have a real potent attack in 2 yrs

 

[Gotchya]

Atleast as far as spinners are concerned, India is miles ahead of others.
Leggie,Offspinner and lt armer, India have it all!!
Aus have an ageing leggie.
Pak only have an off spinner
Eng/NZ...not worth mentioning.

What makes you say that?

Indian WAS miles ahead of the others, but even that was a long time ago. Sure you got every creed of spinner but u'll be missing the point if u didn't ask who is the world beater?

Harbajan had a few good showings, but he is still far from being an ace spinner.

I never rated Kumble as a quality spinner, he never seemed to spin the ball a lot, didn't have a good googly, most of his wickets are ascribed to the element of surprise rather then classical legbreak.

So does that leave the Indians worth mentioning?

And by the way spinners are the class of bowlers that tend to get better with age.

[Edited on 8/8/02 by Gotchya]

 

[marc71178]

Have a look at this.

Lft arm fast:Zaheer
Lft arm medium:Nehra
RT arm Fast : Ajit Agarkar
RT arm medium:Youhannan
Off Spinner :Harbhajan
Leggie: Kumble
Lft Arm spinner:Kartik.

This must be a unique attack, all kind of bowlers in one team, can u imagine that?

That'd be unique, I guess you'd have to have Dravid keeping and batting 4, Tendulkar at 3, and Ganguly and Laxman opening then?

 

[anzac]

having the most different type of spinners in a team does not give you the most varied attack - which was the original question.

i notice you did not mention Sri Lanka in your reply!

so far as the quality of the spin attack goes the proof is in the long term impact of the players under a variety of conditions home and away.

Warne & Muri are the current 'best' because of their ability to still take wickets overseas as well as at home.

Warne has a disadvantage these days since the arrival of Lee he does not get the same sort of opportunity to bowl at the opposition. As a spinner you are not going to be taking a lot of wickets when you have a pace attack of Lee, Gillespie & McGrath bowling the opposition out twice in 3 - 4 days!!!!!! If you are then the pitch had been doctored in order to do so and is not a real 'test'.

Of the Indian spinners Harbijahn has potential but he has only been on the scene a short period of time. Only Kumble has been aroung for a while and can lay claim as the 'class act' of the attack. Even then some observers have pointed out that he is not a big turner of the ball and gets a lot of his wickets via bounce on home wickets.

From what I have seen recently neither Khan nor Agarkar can be called 'fast' at an average of around 80 mph, and would be f/med at best. This is perhaps why India has so many spinners in the squad / team to make up for the lack of pace in their attack.

 

[wahindiawah]

Aus have Warne and??
Sl have Murali(a gift of nature) and ??? not even another spinner of club standard.

Bhajji is a World class spinner, there is a reason why he is being signed by an english county.

Also there is a visible DECLINE in Warne's bowling, he would be playing for another 1-2 yrs atmost!

 

[anzac]

Aus have Warne and MacGill but because they are both Leggies Warne will get the nod ahead of him, even tho' MacGill's figures are better than Warne's at the same number of Tests.

Admittedly Aus do not have a Lefty or an Off Spinner at the moment, but I seem to recall 'funky' Miller doing better than ok in the last season or so at home and abroad.

Muri is world class until he bowls the arm ball or googly - and I am sad that his undoubted talent and upcoming world record of test scalps will forever have that question mark over it.

Singh has undoubted talent but he is young and has only played just over 25 tests. All I am saying is that it is far to soon to be calling him great.

if his career was to end tomorrow would he be remembered in the world arena 5 yrs from now? if so would it be for anything other than the home series V Aus???? If not then unfortunately that makes him look like a good bowler with a great series - not a great bowler like Warne or Muri.

I admit that Warne is not the bowler he once was - (I would not have dropped MacGill from the side when Warne was last out thru injury), but as I said no spinner is going to take a lot of wickets with a pace attack that is taking the best part of 20 wickets in little over 3 days!!!! I don't care who you are - Warne, MacGill, Muri, Kumble or Singh - it just will not happen for you.

Warne is 'great' because of his contribution to the game and his record. Muri can be great because of his achievements to come. Singh ????? - a long way to go yet - at least Anil has taken 10 in an innings regardless of circumstances!!!!

Again I remind you that we are meant to be discussing the most varied attack - not most varied spinning attack, not if they are world class or not.

As I said earlier - I rate the Aus attack as about the most leathal at the moment (just can't get away from those 3 day Tests), but I do not rate them for variety. They are however very effective at what they do.

As another aside if the Indian pacemen were up to pace then perhaps the Indian batsmen would have better technique against pace away from home - having slow starters is a luxury you can not afford in England for the weather if no other reason. Against Aus, Pak, SA and WI of old, you are likely to get smashed off the park and spend the rest of the tour wondering what happened.

I'm afraid that I will always have a question mark over the relative merits of any Indian team until such time as they play Pakistan away from home in both Tests and ODI series. This is simply because I believe they (Pakistan) have the best varied attack in the world. They have a pace attack evey bit as good as Aus, and can back that up with class spinners.

Unfortunately this is unlikely to happen anywhere other than a neutral venue, otherwise we may see ourselves immitating 3rd world football nations and going to war over a game - and when you play with nukes it is definately NOT cricket damnit!!!!



:P

 

[marc71178]

I'd just like to know how a bowling attack consisting of 3 out and out quicks and a spinner qualifies as varied?

 

[anzac]

quite simply it dosen't!!! yet they are considered amongst the bench mark because they are so successful!!!!

it you see my earlier posts I don't rate them so far as variation goes = my pick goes to Pakistan because of their '2nd string'

 

[scorpio]

Anzac: Stop ur stupid comment abt third world countries going to war over a game. and other nonsense you seem to talk( i mean abt politics.)
I can give you enough instances to refute that and prove that third world or developed sports is alwys emotional.

Stay away from politics.

 

[anzac]

scorpio - chill man & read it again - the original reference was to football (soccer)
I forget the exact details but there have been a number of incidents involving central and south american countries (part of the 3rd world) playing international matches where players and officials were killed by spectators.

in one instance it was a world cup qualifying match between neighbouring countries - sometime around the '30s - '50s i think. after an incident on the pitch players from the visiting team were attacked & play was abandoned as a result of the riot that followed in which players, officials & spectators were killed (i think the home team were favorites and were about to loose). a state of "armed hostilities" existed along the border between the two countries and lasted a couple of days b4 sanity prevailed, during which time more people were killed. i think the match was eventually replayed sometime later at a neutral venue, and this time the original home team won, but not without official protest from the other side etc etc etc.

the politics had already been brought up by others in another thread involving the two nations and cricket. in that thread i had said that at least cricket had not got to this stage of fanaticism.

we do not want to go that way regardless of how much we may want to see the two countries tour each other. The comment was a recognition of the current tension and the emotion of the people, and that we do not want to run the risk of providing any idiots with any excuses to do something stupid, especially in the current climate in the region re 9/11.

FYI there was also an international study done a decade or so ago by a group of political & military analysts re potential scenarios regarding nuclear conflict - the 3 most likely were determined to be
a. the failure of USSR communication system technology
b. another Arab - Israeli war in which Israel is beaten by conventional means
c. an escalated border conflict between Pakistan and India.

Now you tell me which of these is more relevant at the moment.!!!!

I did not intend to start any political debate and i do not believe i have done so. Nor did i intend to get involved in any debate on the current situation regarding Pakistan and India, and i certainly did not expect to have to explain myself to this extent - but you made the comment.

everyone is entitled to their opinions & i did not set the precedent. Some of us may not be directly involved but that does not mean we do not have some awareness. you may not agree with or like my comments and we may have to agree to disagree - such is life friend, just think b4 you react so emotionally and disregard what is said or intended just because we may not be from that neck of the woods.

but now that you mention it i also recall a test between India & NZ having to be abandoned in the early '70s because the Indian fans rioted and burnt the stadium down!!!

"Don't call me stupid!!!!"
Kevin Kline - A Fish Called Wanda

 

[anzac]

scorpio - one last point.

in the other thread there is at least 5 posts that refer to military conflict between the two nations b4 i got on the scene, some even decribing it as 'pseudo war'.

These posts were from people who have a direct interest in the situation - so don't just hang **** on me or single me out eh!!!!



:X

 

[wahindiawah]

"Unfortunately this is unlikely to happen "anywhere other than a neutral venue, otherwise we may see ourselves immitating 3rd world football nations and going to war over a game - and when you play with nukes it is definately NOT cricket damnit!!!! "

The only country that did that was a western country, why blame us u fool.

This is cricket forum, stick to cricket!

 

[anzac]

i don't recall blaming anyone of anything yet and i'm only just getting warmed up here!!

it would appear that to not involve politics we would have to refrain from any discussion involving India & Pakistan, as the two seem to be inexorably linked as pointed out by your countrymen!!! it is unfortunate in this post 9/11 era that this region is the subject of much interest and scrutiny by everyone.

vigorous debate and discussion should be encouraged to share ideas and information, in the ultimate hope of all parties gaining some form of appreciation and understanding. Failure to do so smacks of blind fanaticism that led to such incidents in the first place.

yes the west is the only power to use nukes in anger - now it is up to all of us to ensure that it does not happen again.

once again - i did not start either the political debate nor the subsequent war theme. i was simply lamenting the abscence of some potentialy epic cricket. i have not made any direct comment regarding the rights or wrongs of the politics involved, and have simply made reference to historical comment from other sources to substantiate my remarks.

i'm actually finding these knee jerk
reactions quite amusing in respect to an earlier thread about "deluded" posts from Indian supporters. I wonder what the reaction would be if i took the gloves off and started calling a spade a spade?????

i wonder who is really the fool - the one outside looking in, or the one caught in the middle refusing to engage in dialogue?????

i'm yet to be 'enlightened' by someone's brilliant logic or explanation, as opposed to this defamatory rhetoric - it's sooo tiresome and shows both the scope and limit of your arguements - a bit like the relative merits & performance of the Indian bowling attack in the 1st innings so far!!!!

if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen fellas!!!!

next......

 

[lord_of_darkness]

lol getting back to the topic :P

i think that Pakistan has the best variety in attack look at it , the best world side with no injuries has a lot of variations as said before , no doubt i guess Australia or N.Z might come 2nd ii wouldnt be too sure or even Sri Lanka

 

[Neil Pickup]

RE: Politics and Cricket

Anzac was merely lamenting on the fact that India and Pakistan haven't played each other in so long as it's cricket's loss. The comment about going to war over a game was from the 1974/8(?) World Cup Qualifier between El Salvador and Nicaragua. I think those were the teams, but I have no doubt that Marc will correct me if/when they prove to be others. Probably Guatemala. As fair as I could see, there was nothing inflammatory - it is very hard to talk cricket about India and Pakistan without Kashmir coming into the picture somewhere.

You all know full well that if people overstep the line and go to abuse then James, Andre, T_C and I will come down on them like tonnes of bricks.

 

[luckyeddie]

Honduras and El Salvador.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Half right

And back to the subject - Warne an ageing leggie. You mean like Kumble?

 

[scorpio]

Anzac: I am sorry abt my earlier post. Didnt mean to be so harsh. I see where you are coming from. But i can trash most of ur arguments easily but this is not the appropritate forum.

So plz refrain for political stuff...as living in new zea is not gonna help you understand india,pak and the us political dynamics..

 

[marc71178]

Oi Eddie, it's my job to correct Neil, I've done it more times than you've had hot dinners before, so you can't just come in here and take over!!!!

And Lord, we've already discussed that Pakistan do not have a varied attack.

First choice at the moment would be Waqar, Wasim and Shoaib (all pace bowlers) then probably Razzaq (medium fast) and Saqlain (off spin)

That is not varied really IMO.