Better Keeper - Brendon McCullum or BJ Watling

[Fuller Pilch]

NZ cricket seems best at producing miserly seamers and pretty decent keepers/keeper batsmen.

From the 1970s we've had Ken Wadsworth (who could've been an ATG but for a tragic early death), Warren Lees, Ian Smith, Tony Blain, Adam Parore, McCullum, and Watling. Meanwhile Blundell is batting superbly at test level (keeping can be a little rough), and we've got the likes of Fletcher, Cleaver, even Seifert, with Chu one for the future.

 

[NZTailender]

McCullum had several other important 100s as a bat: 200 opening in India,

Didn't win, but it was an impressive knock. He also didn't pass 100 for ages after that.

200 in the Phil Hughes' Sharjah test,

THis was a pretty special circumstance where he basically cbf and set the tone for the rest of his test career where he scored middling scores at quick clip, or a big, quick ton, rather than build a constructive innings.

and a lightning fast 190-odd to set up a win over Sri Lanka (was on track to beat Astle's record).

I mean that was a good innings but, with due respect to Sri Lanka, it was a time when they toured us every year it seemed like and we just pummelled them into the dirt.

I'm just generally anti-baz and don't want to pay him any credit tbh

 

[Flem274*]

Straying away from the question a bit.

McCullum was the better gloveman, and a pretty genius keeper. This is supported by his glovework being one of the very, very few New Zealand cricket related areas where the venerable Scaly Piscine was willing to admit, through gritted Trumpist snivelling teeth and clutching scrabble letters in his fists, that McCullum was world class behind the sticks. In the poll question asked, I vote McCullum.

To address what the thread evolved into, Watling is the better package and it isn't close. McCullum was a pretty reasonable keeper bat in terms that he was able to contribute to big partnerships with other players and get to 50 consistently, but the batting people remember came when he was a specialist batsman. Having lived through his career, he was viewed similarly to the frustration English fans have with Buttler in test cricket - clearly a capable player, but could obviously do much more despite having okay statistics on face value.

Watling could also contribute to big partnerships with specialist batsmen, but he also made big and important hundreds.

As specialist batsmen there is no real point comparing because Watling's sample size is so small and spaced out. He played a few times as a really bad young top order bat and a few times as an already established world class keeper bat and his results were completely different. McCullum had a pretty decent run as an inconsistent opener and extremely dangerous middle order batsman.

 

[thierry henry]

I mean that was a good innings but, with due respect to Sri Lanka, it was a time when they toured us every year it seemed like and we just pummelled them into the dirt.

I'm just generally anti-baz and don't want to pay him any credit tbh

That was actually Sri Lanka's first tour of NZ in 8 years

sorry, I'm also anti-Baz but above all I'm a pedant

 

[thierry henry]

Actually "Sri Lanka tours NZ all the time" is a weirdly persistent myth I've heard a lot.

FWIW, since 2007 Sri Lanka have toured here 3 times. In the same time frame Pakistan have toured 7 times, yet I've never heard the same about them

 

[Athlai]

Actually "Sri Lanka tours NZ all the time" is a weirdly persistent myth I've heard a lot.

FWIW, since 2007 Sri Lanka have toured here 3 times. In the same time frame Pakistan have toured 7 times, yet I've never heard the same about them

Yeah I think SL did in the 2000s, then it was more Bangers and Pakistan that seemed to be back fairly often

 

[thierry henry]

Yeah I think SL did in the 2000s, then it was more Bangers and Pakistan that seemed to be back fairly often

Yes I was very sneaky setting the start as 2007 because Sri Lanka toured 3 seasons in a row 04/05 to 06/07. Then there was an 8 year drought until 14/15 and 15/16 when they toured back to back.

Still, I've never understood how Pakistan ended up touring back to back in 09/10 - 10/11, and then toured 4 consecutive years from 14/15 - 17/18. Must be a case of public perception that they are a more "exciting" team because I don't recall that anomaly being mentioned much.

 

[thierry henry]

McCullum was a pretty reasonable keeper bat in terms that he was able to contribute to big partnerships with other players and get to 50 consistently, but the batting people remember came when he was a specialist batsman.

Whereas the batting I remember is the guy who was supposed to be the next big thing, and then for the better part of a decade swaggered around like he could play, while averaging about 30 in all formats and mostly just being a disappointing idiot.

Really amazing how the last third of his career transformed how he will be remembered, but TH don't forget.

 

[Athlai]

Pakistan debuted a new wunderkid pace bowler against us every summer too.

We also got some fantastic salty tears from pakpassion

 

[Athlai]

Whereas the batting I remember is the guy who was supposed to be the next big thing, and then for the better part of a decade swaggered around like he could play, while averaging about 30 in all formats and mostly just being a disappointing idiot.

Really amazing how the last third of his career transformed how he will be remembered, but TH don't forget.

TH mad cos BMac acted like he was 7 foot tall imo

 

[hendrix]

What height would BMac claim on tinder? @thierry henry

 

[thierry henry]

Guys you're better than this

 

[thierry henry]

Actually I think the 5'7" he's given all over the internet is bordering on harsh. I've always thought he was a 5'7" and a bit guy, classic Tinder 5'9".

 

[thierry henry]

Anyway, finally just to shallow dive myself on McCullum's record:

Of his 5 test centuries as a keeper, 3 were against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. 1 of the other 2 was a 4th innings lost cause against Australia. I give him some credit for the downhill skiing 100 against India even though it came in a boring draw, because at least that was an attempt to set something up

As a batsman: he scored a terrific 200 as an opener against India - and then didn't score another century for over 3 years, while playing as a special batsman and also being elevated to the captaincy.

And then of course, over the last 2 years of his career, he scored 6 centuries including a 300, 2x 200, a 195, and the fastest century ever. No-one can deny that this was a crazy run. It's also really stark how many BIG hundreds he scored. Now of course, he scored those runs and you can't take that away from him - what it does mean though is that his average is inflated relative to the frequency with which he made a score. His numbers are sort of lopsided.

 

[Athlai]

Bangers at home were Test standard for some of McCullums career, any of the hundreds during that period there?

 

[Bahnz]

Pakistan debuted a new wunderkid pace bowler against us every summer too.

We also got some fantastic salty tears from pakpassion

Haha, I remember a legitimately great post on pakpassion in response to someone wondering why everyone was freaking out about Pakistan losing to a genuinely good NZ side by saying something like: "Well imagine how you'd feel if one day, after years of going to the gym and unloading punches on the same bag, you turned up, slipped on your gloves, threw a jab and the bag suddenly came to life, slipped the punch, grew arms and knocked you on your ass. You'd be pretty freaked out to."

 

[NZTailender]

Actually "Sri Lanka tours NZ all the time" is a weirdly persistent myth I've heard a lot.

FWIW, since 2007 Sri Lanka have toured here 3 times. In the same time frame Pakistan have toured 7 times, yet I've never heard the same about them

ok but consider this

i don't care

 

[Days of Grace]

I would choose Watling in an alltime NZ Test XI. He would provide balance to an aggressive lower order of Cairns, Vettori and Hadlee.

 

[Bahnz]

Anyway, finally just to shallow dive myself on McCullum's record:

Of his 5 test centuries as a keeper, 3 were against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. 1 of the other 2 was a 4th innings lost cause against Australia. I give him some credit for the downhill skiing 100 against India even though it came in a boring draw, because at least that was an attempt to set something up

As a batsman: he scored a terrific 200 as an opener against India - and then didn't score another century for over 3 years, while playing as a special batsman and also being elevated to the captaincy.

And then of course, over the last 2 years of his career, he scored 6 centuries including a 300, 2x 200, a 195, and the fastest century ever. No-one can deny that this was a crazy run. It's also really stark how many BIG hundreds he scored. Now of course, he scored those runs and you can't take that away from him - what it does mean though is that his average is inflated relative to the frequency with which he made a score. His numbers are sort of lopsided.

I do think that if NZ had just slotted McCullum into 5 earlier you would've seen those fantastic late-career results start sooner. As mentioned his last couple of years with the gloves saw pretty good returns with the bat. The decision was made that Ryder was too good a batsman to risk up the order, and in a perfect world that probably would be true, but I think a top order of Ryder, Taylor, McCullum, Williamson would've probably been the best mix for NZ during a difficult era.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

It is interesting that the vote is 5-5. We can't see how posters voted, but I guess Watling did better amongst Kiwis whereas McCullum probably got more votes from foreigners (as his style of batting would be noticed by the foreign press and commentators).