Best Sportsman in the world?

[social]

Bull, the most over-rated fighter to have ever lived - but as ever the gullible are easily taken in by all the hype.

Over-rated if you call him the greatest but still great.

To enlighten C_C, Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Roberto Duran and a couple of others at lighter weights are all regarded as p4p better fighters than Ali.

 

[C_C]

Over-rated if you call him the greatest but still great.

To enlighten C_C, Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Roberto Duran and a couple of others at lighter weights are all regarded as p4p better fighters than Ali.

Sugar Ray i can see but others i doubt. Besides, by whom ? Anyways, rating a boxer is pretty subjective since there isnt any statistical base to boxing. popular opinion is Iron Mike in his glory days was the only one who had a good chance of beating Ali at his best.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Sugar Ray i can see but others i doubt. Besides, by whom ? Anyways, rating a boxer is pretty subjective since there isnt any statistical base to boxing. popular opinion is Iron Mike in his glory days was the only one who had a good chance of beating Ali at his best.

Come on C_C, if there was ever anyone who wouldn't get sucked into making assumptions on "popular opinion", then I would have thought you'd be the man!

 

[luckyeddie]

Over-rated if you call him the greatest but still great.

To enlighten C_C, Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Roberto Duran and a couple of others at lighter weights are all regarded as p4p better fighters than Ali.

Well, here's some food for thought about Sugar Ray Robinson. He won the world middleweight title 5 times, and he LOST it 5 times too. If he was pound-for-pound better than Ali, what about the five guys who beat him?

Answer - there's not really such a thing as an 'unbeatable' fighter - for goodness sake, Ali came within seconds of losing to Henry Cooper back in 64 or whenever it was - only Angelo Dundee 'accidentally' ripping his glove bought him enough time to recover from the 'Ammer'.

Henry Armstrong - there's a name to conjure with. Held world titles at 3 different weights (when there were only 9 to choose from - not the current 20 or so and 5 versions of each) - a good candidate.

Roberto Duran? A great fighter from a great era, but why is it only welters or middleweights who are considered to be 'pound for pound' better than Ali?

Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano must have a claim from the heavyweight division, such a shame that Teofilo Stevenson never turned pro too.

Like cricketers, though, you can't compare between eras. Mind you, boxers today are puffs. Couldn't go 75 rounds to save their lives - and what's these things on their hands? Gloves? Why's that - a bit cold?

 

[social]

Well, here's some food for thought about Sugar Ray Robinson. He won the world middleweight title 5 times, and he LOST it 5 times too. If he was pound-for-pound better than Ali, what about the five guys who beat him?

Answer - there's not really such a thing as an 'unbeatable' fighter - for goodness sake, Ali came within seconds of losing to Henry Cooper back in 64 or whenever it was - only Angelo Dundee 'accidentally' ripping his glove bought him enough time to recover from the 'Ammer'.

Henry Armstrong - there's a name to conjure with. Held world titles at 3 different weights (when there were only 9 to choose from - not the current 20 or so and 5 versions of each) - a good candidate.

Roberto Duran? A great fighter from a great era, but why is it only welters or middleweights who are considered to be 'pound for pound' better than Ali?

Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano must have a claim from the heavyweight division, such a shame that Teofilo Stevenson never turned pro too.

Like cricketers, though, you can't compare between eras. Mind you, boxers today are puffs. Couldn't go 75 rounds to save their lives - and what's these things on their hands? Gloves? Why's that - a bit cold?

Just goes to prove that no-one's unbeatable (I knew Aus was in for a bad year when Ricky Hatton disposed of "our" Kostya).

Generally, tapes of yesteryear dont flatter Bradman, etc. and it's very easy to say that today's players are fitter, faster, more professional, etc. and therefore better.

However, I was fortunate enough to spend 4-5 months with Garry Sobers long after he retired. We trained a couple of times per day together (in between visits to the pub, track, movies with his kids).

On one occasion, he batted against the Vic state squad (which included test players like Rodney Hogg, Shaun Graf, Ray Bright and Ian Callen) on an indoor surface with one pad and facing rubber balls. Although incapacitated by dodgy knees, he slaughtered this attack and more. That day confirmed to me that "great" was "great."

 

[PY]

However, I was fortunate enough to spend 4-5 months with Garry Sobers long after he retired. We trained a couple of times per day together (in between visits to the pub, track, movies with his kids).

 

[Swervy]

Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano must have a claim from the heavyweight division, such a shame that Teofilo Stevenson never turned pro too.

was just about to mention him!!!

what is it with Cubans and boxing!!!????

 

[BoyBrumby]

Well, here's some food for thought about Sugar Ray Robinson. He won the world middleweight title 5 times, and he LOST it 5 times too. If he was pound-for-pound better than Ali, what about the five guys who beat him?

Answer - there's not really such a thing as an 'unbeatable' fighter - for goodness sake, Ali came within seconds of losing to Henry Cooper back in 64 or whenever it was - only Angelo Dundee 'accidentally' ripping his glove bought him enough time to recover from the 'Ammer'.

Henry Armstrong - there's a name to conjure with. Held world titles at 3 different weights (when there were only 9 to choose from - not the current 20 or so and 5 versions of each) - a good candidate.

Roberto Duran? A great fighter from a great era, but why is it only welters or middleweights who are considered to be 'pound for pound' better than Ali?

Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano must have a claim from the heavyweight division, such a shame that Teofilo Stevenson never turned pro too.

Like cricketers, though, you can't compare between eras. Mind you, boxers today are puffs. Couldn't go 75 rounds to save their lives - and what's these things on their hands? Gloves? Why's that - a bit cold?

TBF to Sugar Ray the majority of his defeats came after he returned to the ring in his mid 30s after two or three years away. The only defeats he suffered at his peak were to Jake La Motta (The Raging Bull himself, avenged 5 times by Robinson IIRC) & Randolph Turpin in what is probably still the greatest single performance by a British fighter (avenged 2 months later). The only one comparable since was Lloyd Honeygan beating Don Curry, then considered the greatest pound-for-pound fighter (& he was a welter too!) which I'm just about old enough to remember (86-ish?).

I do agree it's more or less impossible to compare across eras tho. Marciano, Cooper & Ali were pretty much Cruiserweights by today’s standards. Marciano's fighting weight was about 13 stone 4lbs, Ali's about a stone more. Lewis or Klitscho would just be too big for them.

If I had to nominate an all-time p4p best, I think I might go for Stanley Ketchel. He sounds some fighter. Murdered at the age of 23, he was already twice middleweight champion (losing his title when Billy Papke punched him before the fight, rather than offering the more traditional handshake and even then lasting 12 rounds) & being good enough to floor the great Jack Johnson when he fought for the heavyweight crown despite giving away 50lbs.

 

[luckyeddie]

Ali faced Liston twice, once as a 22 year old spring chicken ( Liston was at the peak of his prowess, being undefeated and 32 years old) and wimped out.
The next time they faced a year later, Ali knocked him out flat in the first round.

God, it's taken some back-tracking to find the seeds of the Liston argument.

Now I'll tell you what I can remember about the fight when Ali 'knocked him out flat in the first round' - I was a HUGE boxing fan then (boxed myself as a boy), truth be told I still like it, but that day certainly poisoned my view of the 'sport'.

I was at school in Dover - I think I was 12 at the time (1965?). We had been talking about the fight for days - maybe weeks. It was going to be shown like on BBC TV via satellite - that was as exciting as the fight. I can't remember whether it was Telstar or Earlybird - we're talking really, really early days of inter-continental broadcasting.

I went to bed at about 9.00 pm and set my alarm for 2.30 am, sneaked downstairs to watch the fight. My dad was already up or hadn't gone to bed - I said something like "can't sleep" and sat on the settee. I can't remember much about the preamble and the pictures were pretty awful - very grainy black-and-white images but the sound was pretty good. I think 'Arry was commentating, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, Clay/Ali flicked out the glove after 40 seconds or so and Liston's legs just went - he crumpled to the ground and just lay there looking at the referee. I looked at my father as if to say 'WTF?' and he looked back at me and said just one word - "FIX".

At school the next day you could tell the ones who had seen the fight and those who hadn't - those who pretended to have stayed up to watch it were all "What a punch" and those who did smiled knowingly.

It was the biggest con of all time. That glove hardly landed - it was a disgrace then and it's still a disgrace to this day. People were saying 'It was a karate blow' and rubbish like that, but the truth was staring them in the face.

Liston was a paid patsy who took a dive for money.

 

[David]

God, it's taken some back-tracking to find the seeds of the Liston argument.

Now I'll tell you what I can remember about the fight when Ali 'knocked him out flat in the first round' - I was a HUGE boxing fan then (boxed myself as a boy), truth be told I still like it, but that day certainly poisoned my view of the 'sport'.

I was at school in Dover - I think I was 12 at the time (1965?). We had been talking about the fight for days - maybe weeks. It was going to be shown like on BBC TV via satellite - that was as exciting as the fight. I can't remember whether it was Telstar or Earlybird - we're talking really, really early days of inter-continental broadcasting.

I went to bed at about 9.00 pm and set my alarm for 2.30 am, sneaked downstairs to watch the fight. My dad was already up or hadn't gone to bed - I said something like "can't sleep" and sat on the settee. I can't remember much about the preamble and the pictures were pretty awful - very grainy black-and-white images but the sound was pretty good. I think 'Arry was commentating, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, Clay/Ali flicked out the glove after 40 seconds or so and Liston's legs just went - he crumpled to the ground and just lay there looking at the referee. I looked at my father as if to say 'WTF?' and he looked back at me and said just one word - "FIX".

At school the next day you could tell the ones who had seen the fight and those who hadn't - those who pretended to have stayed up to watch it were all "What a punch" and those who did smiled knowingly.

It was the biggest con of all time. That glove hardly landed - it was a disgrace then and it's still a disgrace to this day. People were saying 'It was a karate blow' and rubbish like that, but the truth was staring them in the face.

Liston was a paid patsy who took a dive for money.

To be fair to the man he was already hated for his mafia connections, some say he simply didn't want to fight.

 

[C_C]

God, it's taken some back-tracking to find the seeds of the Liston argument.

Now I'll tell you what I can remember about the fight when Ali 'knocked him out flat in the first round' - I was a HUGE boxing fan then (boxed myself as a boy), truth be told I still like it, but that day certainly poisoned my view of the 'sport'.

I was at school in Dover - I think I was 12 at the time (1965?). We had been talking about the fight for days - maybe weeks. It was going to be shown like on BBC TV via satellite - that was as exciting as the fight. I can't remember whether it was Telstar or Earlybird - we're talking really, really early days of inter-continental broadcasting.

I went to bed at about 9.00 pm and set my alarm for 2.30 am, sneaked downstairs to watch the fight. My dad was already up or hadn't gone to bed - I said something like "can't sleep" and sat on the settee. I can't remember much about the preamble and the pictures were pretty awful - very grainy black-and-white images but the sound was pretty good. I think 'Arry was commentating, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, Clay/Ali flicked out the glove after 40 seconds or so and Liston's legs just went - he crumpled to the ground and just lay there looking at the referee. I looked at my father as if to say 'WTF?' and he looked back at me and said just one word - "FIX".

At school the next day you could tell the ones who had seen the fight and those who hadn't - those who pretended to have stayed up to watch it were all "What a punch" and those who did smiled knowingly.

It was the biggest con of all time. That glove hardly landed - it was a disgrace then and it's still a disgrace to this day. People were saying 'It was a karate blow' and rubbish like that, but the truth was staring them in the face.

Liston was a paid patsy who took a dive for money.

Man i wish i could see 'THAT FIGHT' between Ali and Joe Fraser....<envious of you seeing Ali live>. Well i dont doubt that it was a fix - many have said so...but i think it was the first fight where Ali was comprehensively winning and Liston wimped out....i might be mistaken but it was the fight where Ali was partially blinded due to some stuff Liston's managing team put on his gloves....

 

[luckyeddie]

Man i wish i could see 'THAT FIGHT' between Ali and Joe Fraser....<envious of you seeing Ali live>. Well i dont doubt that it was a fix - many have said so...but i think it was the first fight where Ali was comprehensively winning and Liston wimped out....i might be mistaken but it was the fight where Ali was partially blinded due to some stuff Liston's managing team put on his gloves....

Thrilla?

Man, that was the greatest fight I ever saw, although if truth be told both men were a little over their absolute peak - I guess that's only natural because it was the third time they had fought each other to a standstill.

That era was truly the 'Second Golden Age' of heavyweight boxing.

Regarding Liston's gloves a decade and more before, there was talk that it was something like quicklime, although in truth pretty much anything could have been used. I did hear that it was some alginate or a styptic mousse, designed to staunch the flow of blood from Liston's face that had got on to Liston's gloves accidentally (Clay had cut him to ribbons in the third round) - that's possible of course, although even that is nowadays illegal (only allowed to use adrenaline solution or gel to control bleeding).

 

[Craig]

one thing facing Voce, Larwood, whatzizname and whatzizname, bowling after doing his accounting clerk day job, its quiete another facing McGrath and Warney.
Thats all i gotto say on that matter.
Someone like Tendulkar or Lara probably wouldnt have broken sweat averaging 80+ back then.
Isnt it interesting that in almost every sport, there is always some dude/lady playing early on ( Suzanne Lenglen,Margaret Smith-Court, Bill Tillden, Babe Ruth, Maurice Richard, Tazio Nuevolari, Alekhiene, Chamberlain, etc.) who have mindboggling numbers who even the best of the best contemporary sportsmen cannot even come close to ?

Try and figure out why.

Hint : no, not ALL of them just 'happened to be' the best of the best to ever play the sport.

But how would they have gone if they had to bat on uncovered wickets like he had to and with minumum protecation?

 

[Craig]

2) Eddy Merckx - same reason as Heiden. He won everything he turned up in, almost.

Agreed.

Five Tour de Frances plus the sprinter's and mountain's comp (he did win all three once) on two occassions with the over all, five wins of the Giro d'Italia (Tour of Italy - Armstrong never raced in this) and one Vuelta a Espana (Tour of Spain - Armstrong's best and only placing is 4th), 7 Milan-San Remo's and all the one-day classics at once (except Paris-Tours), three times world champion and to boot he even had the World Hour Record.

 

[Craig]

Since people are including retired players? How about Michael Jordan when he was at his best?

 

[David]

Richard Hadlee.

He was a New Zealander and he was good... Now there's a sportsman for you

 

[Craig]

Unless he is an All Black

 

[David]

Unless he is an All Black

Damn, always one step ahead of me.

 

[Deja moo]

but as ever the gullible are easily taken in by all the hype.

says the man taken in by the hype of 20/20 whatsitsname...

 

[SupaFreak2005]

It was a dark day when C_C stumbled upon Off Topic.

Very TEC of him! such behaviour should only be reserved for Cricket Chat.. or any section I'm not a regular anyways at least we're back on track..

Michael Jordan!!
Arnold Swarzchenegger certainly is the most original in this thread.. but he's credited at one time to have the most perfect body in the history of the world from the guinness book of records for quite a few years...
and being a Trini I have to be biased and say BCL!