Best Players of a particular shot...

[vic_orthdox]

So is this thread asking who we think are the best players of a particular shot, or just us volunteering to be shot down for disagreeing with Eclipse?

 

[Dasa]

If we are talking hook, none of the current players - not a single one of them- compare to players like Greg Chappell, Viv, Kanhai, Sobers, Gavaskar, Kallicharan, etc. Simply because in the bygone days, the hook shot was a far more commonly played stroke than today and was mastered to a far better degree.

I think a lot of that is down to the use of helmets in all levels of cricket these days. In earlier days, you either learned to hook well or got hit...whereas now, you can go for it with little danger, so you see some really poor (and lucky) hook shots.

 

[Eclipse]

I didnt say he has never hooked Ambrose or Walsh - but he's struggled distinctly against Walsh and Ambrose when playing the pull shot- much much more than Tendulkar has ( this is primarily because Tendulkar gets on his toes when pulling far more often than Ponting does).
And Donald has been pulled often enough by Tendulkar.
So has been Flintoff for that matter. However, i am talking about overall and single examples are largely irrelevant without considering the overall picture - ie, throughout career mastery and execution of that stroke.
Ponting's reputation as a puller primarily comes from being a very ferocious puller who plays that shot very often. Tendulkar doesnt play it nearly as often and doesnt play it nearly with as much power but his timing, footwork and back foot pirouette is simply peerless when talking about gracefulness of that shot.

Infact, Tendulkar is arguably the best player of pace in the last 15 years, given that he has faced more quality pacers than any other batsman from his era and have played them far better overall in his career than any other batsman ( Ponting was good pre-2000, when pitches were a lot bouncier and pacers were a lot sharper, whereas Tendulkar was supreme during that period).
Which is why when you take away Shane Warne, the majority of contemporary quality pacers consider Tendulkar as the best batsman in the game. ( Conversely, Lara's playing of spin is slightly better, as evidenced by the regard held for him by Murali, Vettori,McGill,etc.)

Well I would have to disagree.. he did struggle with Walsh in general but I do remember a few spanking hooks of both him and Ambrose in his early years.

Further more I think he plays the hook with alot more control than Tendulkar.. last time he played against us in oz he had serious trouble hooking Lee way more than i would ever expect Ponting to have.

He plays it more often because he has the ability to do so.

 

[Eclipse]

So is this thread asking who we think are the best players of a particular shot, or just us volunteering to be shot down for disagreeing with Eclipse?

no it's just the way it's turnt out

 

[vic_orthdox]

Ponting has a bigger zone from which he can play the pull. He seems to have identified it as a strength of his from early on, and has honed the skill. Sachin has so many other options that he only needs the pull with rare balls, but when he gets the chance, he plays it extremely well IMO. However, I must admit, I've rarely seen him play it on Australian shores.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Straight Drive: ..a difficult one..maybe Yousuf?
Late cut: ????

I think Hayden has a fair case for the straight drive, if you're judging it on effecitveness rather than appeal, as it's the basis for a significant part of his run scoring power.

The late cut is Martyn's shot in world cricket today, I think. He cuts very well in general, both in front of and behind point.

 

[ramkumar_gr]

no it's just the way it's turnt out

But dont you think it has gone a bit too far, when you say Clarke has got the best footwork to spinners.

 

[Eclipse]

But dont you think it has gone a bit too far, when you say Clarke has got the best footwork to spinners.

well he does have good footwork to them..

It's just my opinion and as there are alot of players I don't see play as much as others I'm not sure to be correct..

 

[C_C]

Further more I think he plays the hook with alot more control than Tendulkar.. last time he played against us in oz he had serious trouble hooking Lee way more than i would ever expect Ponting to have.

He plays it more often because he has the ability to do so.

For one, Sachin hooked a few and pulled a few against Wasim, Waqar and Imran as a 16 year old in Pakistan.
For two, he pulled the **** outta Walsh in 94 and in 96 tour of WI, he pulled Ambrose better than anybody has pulled Ambrose.
For three, his pulls agianst Akhtar were in last tour of PAK were as good as anyone's.
Not to mention, Tendulkar has absolutely butchered a few excellent pace bowlers in ODIs with his pull shot.

As for hook shot, it may surprise you but Sachin has played far more hooks than Ponting has in his career - he used to hook reasonably often till the 96 world cup - more often than most players and almost all of Tendulkar's hooks go right along the ground - which is the proper way to play a hook shot ( not top edging it for a six/four like many players do).
Anyone who's seen Sachin's trademark pull-shot ( where he gets on his toes and turns like a ballet dancer on the toes of his back foot) wouldnt question his ability to play the pull shot with excellence.
But like i said - Tendulkar is a lot more wristy than Ponting ( who isnt wristy at all really) and as a result, he's often flicked the ball or worked it off his hips than Ponting.
He is a more complete batsman and as a result, has more strokes for a delivery than almost every single player out there.
For your information, how often one plays a shot is a quotient of how many options one has. Just like Viv ( or now, Laxman) can choose to either flick a ball a foot outside offstump to cow corner or cover drive it, whereas most batsmen can only cover drive it.
To say that the other batsmen play it more often because they are more competent at it is simply inaccurate, as Viv was a superb cover driver of the ball.

And last but not the least, there have been batsmen who've played the hook/pull so often that it has been their biggest failing. If i am not mistaken, Keith Stackpole was known as 'happy hooker' because of his compulsive penchant for hooking/pulling the ball and promptly perishing to it. So your idea that ' if person A plays it more often than person B, he is more competent in that stroke' is simply inaccurate.

 

[vic_orthdox]

To be fair, I think Ponting rarely "hooks" balls. Simply because his pulls are virtually off the front foot - he doesn't move far behind the crease to play them, just pushes forward and then rocks back. It's nigh impossible to play a hook in a similar fashion.

 

[Eclipse]

Well I'm not going to change your opinion or though I disagre with it almost compleatly. So I give up.

But I really wouldn't say Ponting is limited in his stroke range lol.. if he didn't want to hook/pull there are still alot of options for him. Infact these days he plays more shots than Tendulkar.

 

[Eclipse]

To be fair, I think Ponting rarely "hooks" balls. Simply because his pulls are virtually off the front foot - he doesn't move far behind the crease to play them, just pushes forward and then rocks back. It's nigh impossible to play a hook in a similar fashion.

He tends to push onto the front foot and rock back.. but you are right he never really gets well back. He doesn't really need to, Viv played the shot exactly the same way.

 

[Eclipse]

And last but not the least, there have been batsmen who've played the hook/pull so often that it has been their biggest failing. If i am not mistaken, Keith Stackpole was known as 'happy hooker' because of his compulsive penchant for hooking/pulling the ball and promptly perishing to it. So your idea that ' if person A plays it more often than person B, he is more competent in that stroke' is simply inaccurate.

I don't dispute that.. Ponting does get out to it every now and then but also scores more runs off it than anyone else.. re cricinfo from last year or whenever they showed that stat.. funny Hussain actually had the best average so far as playing it and not getting out.

 

[C_C]

But I really wouldn't say Ponting is limited in his stroke range lol.. if he didn't want to hook/pull there are still alot of options for him. Infact these days he plays more shots than Tendulkar.

Ponting is more limited a strokemaker than Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman and Lara, primarily because he is not wristy while all of them are extremely wristy players.
If Ponting doesnt hook, he usually pats the ball back, because his flick shots are pretty dodgy.
He plays more shots than Tendulkar in a sense that he bats more aggressively recently ( though Tendulkar and Lara are peerless aggressors of their era against topnotch bowling) but he hasnt played as many variety of shots as Tendulkar does throughout his career.

 

[Eclipse]

Ponting is more limited a strokemaker than Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman and Lara, primarily because he is not wristy while all of them are extremely wristy players.
If Ponting doesnt hook, he usually pats the ball back, because his flick shots are pretty dodgy.
He plays more shots than Tendulkar in a sense that he bats more aggressively recently ( though Tendulkar and Lara are peerless aggressors of their era against topnotch bowling) but he hasnt played as many variety of shots as Tendulkar does throughout his career.

Ponting's not wristy but he can still work the ball from offstump through the legside as good as anyone..

Laxman is no good at lofted shots I wouldn't say he has a stroke range as good as Ponting.. Dravid yes with his shots along the ground but again he can't expand his play like Ponting..

For all of that it doesn't really matter seeing Pontings a more free scoreing player than the lot.

 

[C_C]

Ponting's not wristy but he can still work the ball from offstump through the legside as good as anyone..

Err no.
Ponting cannot flick a ball a foot and half offstump over cow corner like Laxman and Viv can. Indeed, nobody can when compared to those two.

Laxman is no good at lofted shots I wouldn't say he has a stroke range as good as Ponting.. Dravid yes with his shots along the ground but again he can't expand his play like Ponting..

Laxman is one of the most sublime stroke players in the game. Not only is he incredibly wristy(which gives him more options than Ponting), his strokeplay on both sides of the wicket are almost perfectly symmetrical.

 

[Eclipse]

Err no.
Ponting cannot flick a ball a foot and half offstump over cow corner like Laxman and Viv can. Indeed, nobody can when compared to those two.

Not from a foot and half.. he never trys that anyway.

Laxman is one of the most sublime stroke players in the game. Not only is he incredibly wristy(which gives him more options than Ponting), his strokeplay on both sides of the wicket are almost perfectly symmetrical.

Prehaps he does have a bigger range or though I can't think of any shot Ponting can't play Plus he doesn't get out playing them as often and typicaly hits them harder and finds the gaps. Also laxman cannot slog that well and his stroke play is often not that effective in ODI's

I know which player i would rather have.

 

[C_C]

Prehaps he does have a bigger range or though I can't think of any shot Ponting can't play

When you are talking top flight batsmen, there isnt a stroke that is out of their reach ( and i am talking about the Laxmans, Dravids,Tendulkars, Pontings, Inzamams, Gillchrists, Haydens, Martyns, Laras, Chanderpauls,Kallises of this world).
So there really isnt any shot that any of these batsmen cannot play ( that is, conventional shots).
Its rather, how they play their game - with wristy players, they often flick/roll/work the ball off instead of having swinging bats all the time.
The thing that seperates quintessential strokeplayers like Laxman, Mark Waugh,Aravind deSilva, Hooper, Lara, Tendulkar and Dravid from the rest is that they are/were all extremely wristy and worldclass batsmen - and as a result, they often play/played several different shots to identical deliveries as opposed to one stroke.

And no doubt, i would pick Ponting over Laxman as well - but we arnt debating how good a batsman is,we are merely talking about how good a strokeplayer a batsman is and who is/was best at a particular shot. If it were about who was a 'best batsman', many of these players ( like Mark Waugh, Laxman, Hooper,Zaheer Abbass) wouldnt enter the equation with the likes of Lara, Tendulkar, Dravid, Ponting, Gillchrist, Viv, Chappell, etc. present.
And Tugga was a far better test batsman than junior but junior was a lightyear or two ahead in terms of shot-making, as Tugga's shotmaking was almost always very awkward.

 

[Eclipse]

When you are talking top flight batsmen, there isnt a stroke that is out of their reach ( and i am talking about the Laxmans, Dravids,Tendulkars, Pontings, Inzamams, Gillchrists, Haydens, Martyns, Laras, Chanderpauls,Kallises of this world).
So there really isnt any shot that any of these batsmen cannot play ( that is, conventional shots).
Its rather, how they play their game - with wristy players, they often flick/roll/work the ball off instead of having swinging bats all the time.
The thing that seperates quintessential strokeplayers like Laxman, Mark Waugh,Aravind deSilva, Hooper, Lara, Tendulkar and Dravid from the rest is that they are/were all extremely wristy and worldclass batsmen - and as a result, they often play/played several different shots to identical deliveries as opposed to one stroke.

True.. but honestly I don't believe you have to be a wristy player to be a strokemaker.. and being able to change your shot because of being wristy and having alot of options isn't really a huge advantage.. It's not like Ponting stuggles to work the ball into gaps etc.. and yes he can play a diferent shots to a ball if there are feilders in that area.

With Sachin he's not really a wristy player when he plays his drives but when he plays of his pads and on the legside he is.

Being wristy is doesn't make you a better player.

 

[C_C]

True.. but honestly I don't believe you have to be a wristy player to be a strokemaker.. and being able to change your shot because of being wristy and having alot of options isn't really a huge advantage.. It's not like Ponting stuggles to work the ball into gaps etc.. and yes he can play a diferent shots to a ball if there are feilders in that area.

With Sachin he's not really a wristy player when he plays his drives but when he plays of his pads and on the legside he is.

Being wristy is doesn't make you a better player.

Again, you are confusing the issue of a better player with the issue of a better strokemaker.
You are shifting the goalpost by bringing into question who is a better batsman, where the essence of the argument ( ie, who is a better strokeplayer or a player of a particular shot) is rooted in elegance and ability to play different strokes superbly to the same ball.
A strokemaker is one who is simply more fluent and complete in his strokemaking.
A better player is simply who scores more runs with various factors ( home/away/best opposition/batting support, etc. ) taken into consideration.
Steve Waugh is a better player than Mark Waugh, atleast in Tests
Steve Waugh is also a far inferior strokeplayer than Mark Waugh

Generally, wristy batsmen are more complete and better strokeplayers simply because the usage of one's wrists facilitates to play slides,glides,glances,flicks, etc. to far better precision and poise.
Tendulkar is a pretty wristy player and often he crashes the ball/turns the ball to third man area using his wrists.