Best ever medium pacer?

[vic_orthdox]

Gavin Larsen.

 

[Nate]

h

 

[a massive zebra]

h

Mr Articulate returns!

 

[Matt79]

Batsmen that faced McGrath, Pollock pre-ankle injury, Aldmerman pre-shoulder injury, Hadlee etc would undoubtedly take issue with their classification as medium pacers.

At worst, these guys were all sharp, albeit slightly below express, and much quicker than, say, Hoggard.

For mine, medium pacers are people like Bedser, Max Walker, Fazal Mahmood, Sid Barnes. These are guys that had great control over line, length and movement out of necessity as they had no pace to fall back on.

I'll admit i was thinking alderman after his shoulder injury, I'm too young to remember him before that. McGrath is a line-ball one in my mine, certainly since his ankle injury he might not like the tag, but medium-fast rather than fast-medium fits him better, and he's still a pretty good bowler for that. I'd agree Pollock and Hadlee would be fast-medium.

Genuine medium pace seems to be a dying art in Test cricket these days (there's plenty in ODIs because of all-rounders... Is there still a place for medium pacers (as beautifully defined by social) who aren't in the McGrath/Bedser level of greatness at what they do? There no shortage of average fast bowlers or spinners

 

[Goughy]

Bradman found Larwood to be quite a challenge too and Larwood isnt exactly the greatest or finest of very fast bowlers.

?????????????

We are talking about HAROLD Larwood aren't we?
He is without a doubt one of the greatest fast bowlers ever, period.

If you want to judge solely on average I would ask you to first comprehend the LBW rule at the time and how that blunted Larwood far more than any opponent.

Larwood is a great and he is even more imprtant as he was the first real speed of light bowler. Apologies to Gregory, Hearne etc.

 

[Autobahn]

I'll admit i was thinking alderman after his shoulder injury, I'm too young to remember him before that. McGrath is a line-ball one in my mine, certainly since his ankle injury he might not like the tag, but medium-fast rather than fast-medium fits him better, and he's still a pretty good bowler for that. I'd agree Pollock and Hadlee would be fast-medium.

Genuine medium pace seems to be a dying art in Test cricket these days (there's plenty in ODIs because of all-rounders... Is there still a place for medium pacers (as beautifully defined by social) who aren't in the McGrath/Bedser level of greatness at what they do? There no shortage of average fast bowlers or spinners

I'll try and answer:

I suppose the problem is nowadays with covered pitches, you don't get the massive movement off the seam like in the pre-covering days.

 

[a massive zebra]

Larwood is a great and he is even more imprtant as he was the first real speed of light bowler. Apologies to Gregory, Hearne etc.

It is very debatable whether Larwood was any faster than Charles Kortright, Charles Harenc or Samuel Redgate.

 

[Goughy]

It is very debatable whether Larwood was any faster than Charles Kortright or Charles Harenc.

********

 

[JBH001]

I gotta say - when I think of medium pacer, Mcgrath does not come to mind.
He is more a fast-medium bowler, latterly a medium- fast bowler but not a medium pace bowler.

Angus Fraser to my mind was a medium pacer, as well as Tom Cartwright, Mike Hendrick etc. Harking further back, Maurice Tate was a medium pacer too and Chaminda Vaas most certainly has been one over the last few years.

Best medium pacer? It's difficult to go beyond Sydney Barnes.
(though giving him as an answer may be cheating a little bit)

 

[Langeveldt]

h

a more coherent and well thought out post than many..

 

[open365]

I think it's stupid to term Glen McGrath as medium pace, medium pacers are people like Ian Harvey and Dwayne Bravo, not all time greats like McGrath. Though it doesn't seem like it on tv, 80mph is bloody quick to normal people.

 

[C_C]

?????????????

We are talking about HAROLD Larwood aren't we?
He is without a doubt one of the greatest fast bowlers ever, period.

If you want to judge solely on average I would ask you to first comprehend the LBW rule at the time and how that blunted Larwood far more than any opponent.

Larwood is a great and he is even more imprtant as he was the first real speed of light bowler. Apologies to Gregory, Hearne etc.

Sorry but that doesnt add up.Voce was more successful than Larwood and i dont see Larwood as anything more than a Patrick Patterson/Rodney Hogg kinda bowler.
To my knowledge, Spofforth was the first 'speed demon' in cricket of any real quality.

 

[Jungle Jumbo]

I think it's stupid to term Glen McGrath as medium pace, medium pacers are people like Ian Harvey and Dwayne Bravo, not all time greats like McGrath. Though it doesn't seem like it on tv, 80mph is bloody quick to normal people.

Agreed on all counts. Medium pace is where the keeper can stand up without too much trouble, someone who trundles in with a bit of swing and cuts it about. McGrath is far too quick to be classed as medium pace.

 

[Goughy]

Sorry but that doesnt add up.Voce was more successful than Larwood and i dont see Larwood as anything more than a Patrick Patterson/Rodney Hogg kinda bowler.
To my knowledge, Spofforth was the first 'speed demon' in cricket of any real quality.

Oh my Lord (...reaches for blood pressure medicine..), even Voce's own mother would not have put him in Larwood's class. As for comparing him to Rodney Hogg!!!

Larwood was by FAR the fastest before and until Tyson. Watch the film, read in depth and listen to people. It is without doubt the case. Only those who know nothing or think they know soooo much about cricket that they can show it by arguing and believing a controversial point would think different.

I just cannot believe what Im reading here.

EDIT: 45% of Larwoods test wickets were bowled. Why? because, due to the LBW law of the time, any ball pitching even a centimetre outside off-stump could be kicked away and could not be given out. As a very fast right arm bowler he was at a hugh disadvantage.

Larwood was a physical freak who stood above the rest and is the model on which modern pace bowling is built.

 

[C_C]

Larwood was by FAR the fastest before and until Tyson. Watch the film, read in depth and listen to people. It is without doubt the case. Only those who know nothing or think they know soooo much about cricket that they can show it by arguing and believing a controversial point would think different.

I dont know about that claim. Compton is on record saying that Nissar was atleast as fast as Larwood. There was also Cortwright and Spofforth.
And yes, i've seen some clips of that infamous bodyline series. I'd rather face 4 larwoods - any day of the week- than just two Lillees or Marshall/Holding/Garner/Roberts/Imran/Waqar/Wasim etc etc.
The success of bodyline was the cornerstone of Larwood's fame and the fundamental tenet of that cornerstone was the novelty of it.
I see no reason why Larwood was anything more than a Rodney Hogg or Patrick Patterson- very quick but not of the highest quality either.

 

[Swervy]

I dont know about that claim. Compton is on record saying that Nissar was atleast as fast as Larwood. There was also Cortwright and Spofforth.

By most of the accounts I have read, spofforth was actually only a medium pacer..Cortwright was apparently genuinely fast

 

[a massive zebra]

Spofforth was certainly not, by modern standards, fast. His first wicket in Test cricket was a stumping, and five of his 92 Test wickets were likewise. This would suggest that he may have bowled at the pace of Alec Bedser, for whom keepers sometimes stood at the wickets. Blackham and Murdoch stood at the stumps for the majority of Spofforth deliveries, though they retreated a few paces when Spofforth signalled that he intended to bowl a faster delivery.

Spofforth boasted that"he was the fastest bowler that ever was", which Lord Hawke dismissed as "harmless delusion" because "he never achieved anything like the pace of JJ Kotze or Charles Kortright or even, for that matter, a number of other bowlers such as Thomas Richardson."

At best Spofforth can probably claim to be the fastest bowler around in the 1870s and possibly the early 1880s. In modern terms Spofforth would rank as a fast-medium bowler at his very best; that is, his fastest ball might just about fall into that category.

 

[archie mac]

Spofforth was certainly not, by modern standards, fast. His first wicket in Test cricket was a stumping, and five of his 92 Test wickets were likewise. This would suggest that he may have bowled at the pace of Alec Bedser, for whom keepers sometimes stood at the wickets. Blackham and Murdoch stood at the stumps for the majority of Spofforth deliveries, though they retreated a few paces when Spofforth signalled that he intended to bowl a faster delivery.

Spofforth boasted that"he was the fastest bowler that ever was", which Lord Hawke dismissed as "harmless delusion" because "he never achieved anything like the pace of JJ Kotze or Charles Kortright or even, for that matter, a number of other bowlers such as Thomas Richardson."

At best Spofforth can probably claim to be the fastest bowler around in the 1870s and possibly the early 1880s. In modern terms Spofforth would rank as a fast-medium bowler at his very best; that is, his fastest ball might just about fall into that category.

I think Spofforth started off as a true fast bowler after being inspired by 'tear em up' Tarrrant, but then discovered swerve (swing) and pace changes and only bowled the occasional faster ball after that. Richard Cashman wrote a great bio called 'Demon' Spofforth.

As for Compton and his opinion on Larwood, he didnot (Compton) start his FCC until 1936 (I think) so would not have seen Larwood at his best, as he was beset by injuries after 1934 and even played as a batsman only for Notts in some matches.

 

[marc71178]

h

As in "H" from Steps?

Granted he's better than Kabir Ali, but surely he's not the best medium pacer ever?

 

[JBH001]

I think Spofforth started off as a true fast bowler after being inspired by 'tear em up' Tarrrant, but then discovered swerve (swing) and pace changes and only bowled the occasional faster ball after that. Richard Cashman wrote a great bio called 'Demon' Spofforth.

As for Compton and his opinion on Larwood, he didnot (Compton) start his FCC until 1936 (I think) so would not have seen Larwood at his best, as he was beset by injuries after 1934 and even played as a batsman only for Notts in some matches.

Interesting that, especially as Larwood was never the same bowler he had been after the bodyline series. So that is a difficult basis for comparison.

(I guess a useful, functional definition of a medium pacer is one to whom a good keeper can consistently stand up at the stumps to)

From what I have read, Tom Richardson was one of the fastest bowlers around in the 1890's though this is the first I have really heard of Kortright.

But to say that Larwood is the foundation stone of the true fast bowler is stretching it a liitle bit. And claiming that the old LBW rule disadvantaged Larwood is not such a good point, as it would have applied equally to all bowlers and is therefore a little irrelevant.