aussie
Hall of Fame Member
What is an all-rounder?
This a discussion I have with people all the time with how such players are described & for example I see a regular mistake IMO that Miller and Botham being considered bowling all-rounders like this voting list noted.
Of course you had strange point in other thread with people under-rating Craig White being a all-rounder & sometimes when commentators would refer to people like a Kieron Pollard, Andrew Symonds for example as all-rounders, when they clearly aren't.
Overall I sometimes i wonder if cricket fans are guilty of over-exaggerating the main role of an all-rounder or using the term too random.
This perfect sense of a player who is good enough to make the team as a specialist batsman, or as a specialist bowler, and is used in both those roles, is realistically hardly ever been done by much all-rounders in test history on a consistent basis.
Some all-rounders may have done it i.e Sobers, Botham @ his 77-82 peak, Miller in the 50s. But most all-rounders were not that super skilled in cricket history. Majority basically had a core strength as a batsman/bowler - but their secondary skill was strong enough to elevate them into an all-rounder category. Some also had what i would call equal core strength with bat & ball.
And because of that in many cases this allowed teams to play 5 bowlers. This should not be under-rated. Most of great teams in test history except Windies 76-91, WI 63-69 or AUS 95-2007 had 5 bowlers:
- Bodyline 1932
- Warwick Armstrong AUS of the 1920s
- Chappell's AUS of early/md 70s - Lillee/Thompson/Walker/Gilmour/Mallet
- Modern Smith S Africa, with Kallis
- ENG 1951-58 with Trevor Bailey the all-rounder supporting any 4 of Bedser/Trueman/Statham/Tyson/Laker/Lock/Wardle
- S Africa in 1970 before their ban
- S Africa in the 90s under Cronje - Donald/Pollock/Kallis/McMillian/Klusener
Then you had some very good/good teams who did it:
- Illingworth ENG of the late 60s/70s - Snow/Arnold/Greig/Underwood/Illingworth
- ENG under Vaughan circa 2003-2005 - Harmo/Hoggard/Jones/Flintoff/Giles or ENG under Hussain circa 2000-2003 - Gough/Caddick/Cork/White/Giles or Croft & currently with Stokes/Ali
- NZ under Fleming whenever Cairns was fit.
- AUS under Clarke recently
- Modern NZ Anderson/Neesham
The complete all-rounders
These are the cricketers who i would say at the "peak" of their cricket careers could certainly be considered one of the top 6 batsmen in their teams & one of the top 4 bowlers:
- Gary Sobers, Keith Miller, Ian Botham
From 1958-1969 - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...template=results;type=allr ound;view=innings Sobers averaged 65 with bat and 33 with ball as part of four-man attack alongside Wes Hall, Charlie Griffith and Lance Gibbs. Those figures would be even better if his efforts for the Rest of the World versus England in 1970 were included in his test record - Statistics | Rest of the World XI tour of England | ESPN Cricinfo
Botham during his well noted 1977-1982 zenith filled the aforementioned criteria with a batting average touching 39 and a bowling average of 23 - Stats analysis: Ian Botham | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo, while Miller’s career out of 87 test innings - only seven were at number six or seven and he combined this genuine top order batting with lethal new ball bowler alongside Ray Lindwall.
Batting all-rounders
These are the cricketers whose core strength was their batting - but the secondary ability as bowlers - made them 5th bowlers at best, but depending on conditions/team needs - their bowling could be elevating to a 4th bowling options.
- Jacques Kallis, Brian McMillan, Shane Watson, Mushtaq Mohammad, Trevor Goddard, Eddie Barlow, Tony Greig, Clive Rice, John Reid, Aubrey Faulkner, Frank Wooley, M Hafeez, Neil Johnson
On Kallis his figures flatter him especially when comparisons are made with Sobers based on their similar stats.
Having grown up watching his entire career I recall in the late 90s/early 2000s when Allan Donald and Shaun Pollock lead the Proteas attack, Kallis was essentially a 4th bowler.
Then circa 2001-2006 (before Makhaya Ntini’s peak and Dale Steyn emerged) when Donald retired and Pollock declined South Africa was in a bad period - Kallis's bowling didn't take up extra responsibility. Notably he did not take a 5 wicket haul against a strong opponent since versus England at Leeds 2003.
However this isn’t a criticism, but a simple highlight of some discrepancies in his record and why should be called the most elite "batting all-rounder" in cricket history.
Bowling all-rounders
These are the cricketers whose core strength was their bowling - but their secondary ability as batsmen - made them solid # 7 batsmen at best # 8 at worst. Depending on team balance or needs, some could bat as high as # 6.
- Imran Khan, Richard Hadlee, Shaun Pollock, Mike Procter, Kapil Dev, Jack Gregory, Riche Benaud, Davidson, Chris Cairns, Daniel Vettori, Intikhab Alam, Gary Gilmour, Learie Constantine, Bernard Julien, Dattu Phadkar, Heath Streak, Paul Strang, Manoj Prabakhar
On Imran yes it is common knowledge that he averaged 50 & 22 (not sure the exact numbers) with the bat/ball in the final 10 years of his career. But as i've highlighted to people over the years - those 10 years was not totally as a "complete all-rounder".
When we think of Imran as a complete all-rounder i believe it is period in which he best combined competent batting - with 85mph to 90 mph bowling.
Based on my research & understanding of this period of his career & speaking to people who actually saw him bowl, this "peak" was from Karachi 1980 when he scored his 1st test Hundred to the 1988 series in WI, when his bowling was still quick. Before that 1980 test hundred, Imran was just like Warne or Vaas - a bowler who could bat.
During this period his aggregate was: 44 tests, 1881 runs @ 40.02 & 216 wickets 17.51 - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/40560.html?class=1;spanmax1=1+Jan+1989;spanmin1=1+ NOV+1980;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allro und;view=innings
Still superb - but the reason i would still place him in the elite "bowling-all rounder" category, instead of "complete all-rounder" is because the majority of his runs in this period came from # 7. All his 100s & 50s during this period except his hundred @ Oval 1987 where he batted @ 6 (seemed tactical, since he wasn't a better batsman than Ijaz Ahmed) were @ 7 too - 5th Test: England v Pakistan at The Oval, Aug 6-11, 1987 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
I cut off the 1988 WI series with his bowling, because after that series his bowling declined pace wise & in its use. After the 1987 world cup semi-final he had retired - but he was coaxed back out a to tour the windies. They are no clips of that 88 tour of the windies unfortunately, but if you look at some clips of him bowling in ENG 87 or the WC - its clear he was still fast @ age 35, a few months before the Caribbean tour:
Plus i've spoken to journalist, former players (Roger Harper) & my Uncle in trinidad who saw him bowl in the 88 series & they say he was still sharp then.
However after 1988 until retirement his batting kept getting better to point where in the 1992 world cup final he was batting @ # 3, scoring his highest test score in AUS batting @ # 5 & a general top solid 6 batsman. But his bowling had clearly declined in pace & potency after 88.
This is why his batting averaged soared to 50 come the end of his test career, but clearly it didn't soar to 50 while he was still potent as a bowler.
Basic all-rounders
These are the category of all-rounders who i would say whose abilities as batsmen or bowlers that were equal. This at times is even shown by the similarities in their batting & bowling averages. Due to this their roles in their respective teams, throughout their careers tended to fluctuate.
- Vinoo Mankad, Wilfred Rhodes, Trevor Bailey, Andrew Flintoff, Lance Klusener, Monty Noble, Jimmy Sinclair, Dwayne Bravo, Ravi Shastri, Craig White, Sakib Al-Hasan, Tiger Lance, Afridi, Razzaq, Azhar Mahmood
Not all-rounders:
This is category people at times mixed up & exaggerate. These players usually bat @ # 8, some of of them even have test hundreds, while contributing useful test runs - but they are not "bowling all-rounders" - just simply bowlers who are competent enough as batsmen to not be considered "tail-enders".
Or maybe they are batsmen who just bowl a bit & get a lot of wickets with their part-timer medium pace/spin - some of them even have 5 wicket hauls. But their bowling is strong enough to elevate them to the "batting all-rounder" status.
- Mitchell Johnson, Swann, Broad, Giles, Roger Harper, Ashwin, Brett Lee, Jason Gillespie, Harbhajan Singh, Malcolm Marshall, Warne, Vaas, Ray Lindwall, Wasim Akram, Craig Matthews, John Bracewell, Bruce Taylor, Pat Symcox, Nicky Boje, Bapu Nadkarni, Gubby Allen
Asif Iqbal, Doug Walters, Andrew Symonds, Waugh Brother, Bev Congdon, Ted Dexter, Walter Hammond, Hansie Cronje, Sanath Jayasuriya, Dilshan, Allan Border etc etc (this is a long category)
Using the above breakdown, some modern all-rounders in the game that are showing real talent that are likely to be big future players - Stokes, Corey Anderson, A Morkel (not as long term of course), James Faulkner, Andre Russell, M Marsh, Ali, Angelo Matthews, T Perera - all of them are in the "basic all-rounder" category still. Only Matthews & Ali i would say are clearly a batting all-rounders.
However this is just my 2 cents on the matter....
This a discussion I have with people all the time with how such players are described & for example I see a regular mistake IMO that Miller and Botham being considered bowling all-rounders like this voting list noted.
Of course you had strange point in other thread with people under-rating Craig White being a all-rounder & sometimes when commentators would refer to people like a Kieron Pollard, Andrew Symonds for example as all-rounders, when they clearly aren't.
Overall I sometimes i wonder if cricket fans are guilty of over-exaggerating the main role of an all-rounder or using the term too random.
This perfect sense of a player who is good enough to make the team as a specialist batsman, or as a specialist bowler, and is used in both those roles, is realistically hardly ever been done by much all-rounders in test history on a consistent basis.
Some all-rounders may have done it i.e Sobers, Botham @ his 77-82 peak, Miller in the 50s. But most all-rounders were not that super skilled in cricket history. Majority basically had a core strength as a batsman/bowler - but their secondary skill was strong enough to elevate them into an all-rounder category. Some also had what i would call equal core strength with bat & ball.
And because of that in many cases this allowed teams to play 5 bowlers. This should not be under-rated. Most of great teams in test history except Windies 76-91, WI 63-69 or AUS 95-2007 had 5 bowlers:
- Bodyline 1932
- Warwick Armstrong AUS of the 1920s
- Chappell's AUS of early/md 70s - Lillee/Thompson/Walker/Gilmour/Mallet
- Modern Smith S Africa, with Kallis
- ENG 1951-58 with Trevor Bailey the all-rounder supporting any 4 of Bedser/Trueman/Statham/Tyson/Laker/Lock/Wardle
- S Africa in 1970 before their ban
- S Africa in the 90s under Cronje - Donald/Pollock/Kallis/McMillian/Klusener
Then you had some very good/good teams who did it:
- Illingworth ENG of the late 60s/70s - Snow/Arnold/Greig/Underwood/Illingworth
- ENG under Vaughan circa 2003-2005 - Harmo/Hoggard/Jones/Flintoff/Giles or ENG under Hussain circa 2000-2003 - Gough/Caddick/Cork/White/Giles or Croft & currently with Stokes/Ali
- NZ under Fleming whenever Cairns was fit.
- AUS under Clarke recently
- Modern NZ Anderson/Neesham
The complete all-rounders
These are the cricketers who i would say at the "peak" of their cricket careers could certainly be considered one of the top 6 batsmen in their teams & one of the top 4 bowlers:
- Gary Sobers, Keith Miller, Ian Botham
From 1958-1969 - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...template=results;type=allr ound;view=innings Sobers averaged 65 with bat and 33 with ball as part of four-man attack alongside Wes Hall, Charlie Griffith and Lance Gibbs. Those figures would be even better if his efforts for the Rest of the World versus England in 1970 were included in his test record - Statistics | Rest of the World XI tour of England | ESPN Cricinfo
Botham during his well noted 1977-1982 zenith filled the aforementioned criteria with a batting average touching 39 and a bowling average of 23 - Stats analysis: Ian Botham | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo, while Miller’s career out of 87 test innings - only seven were at number six or seven and he combined this genuine top order batting with lethal new ball bowler alongside Ray Lindwall.
Batting all-rounders
These are the cricketers whose core strength was their batting - but the secondary ability as bowlers - made them 5th bowlers at best, but depending on conditions/team needs - their bowling could be elevating to a 4th bowling options.
- Jacques Kallis, Brian McMillan, Shane Watson, Mushtaq Mohammad, Trevor Goddard, Eddie Barlow, Tony Greig, Clive Rice, John Reid, Aubrey Faulkner, Frank Wooley, M Hafeez, Neil Johnson
On Kallis his figures flatter him especially when comparisons are made with Sobers based on their similar stats.
Having grown up watching his entire career I recall in the late 90s/early 2000s when Allan Donald and Shaun Pollock lead the Proteas attack, Kallis was essentially a 4th bowler.
Then circa 2001-2006 (before Makhaya Ntini’s peak and Dale Steyn emerged) when Donald retired and Pollock declined South Africa was in a bad period - Kallis's bowling didn't take up extra responsibility. Notably he did not take a 5 wicket haul against a strong opponent since versus England at Leeds 2003.
However this isn’t a criticism, but a simple highlight of some discrepancies in his record and why should be called the most elite "batting all-rounder" in cricket history.
Bowling all-rounders
These are the cricketers whose core strength was their bowling - but their secondary ability as batsmen - made them solid # 7 batsmen at best # 8 at worst. Depending on team balance or needs, some could bat as high as # 6.
- Imran Khan, Richard Hadlee, Shaun Pollock, Mike Procter, Kapil Dev, Jack Gregory, Riche Benaud, Davidson, Chris Cairns, Daniel Vettori, Intikhab Alam, Gary Gilmour, Learie Constantine, Bernard Julien, Dattu Phadkar, Heath Streak, Paul Strang, Manoj Prabakhar
On Imran yes it is common knowledge that he averaged 50 & 22 (not sure the exact numbers) with the bat/ball in the final 10 years of his career. But as i've highlighted to people over the years - those 10 years was not totally as a "complete all-rounder".
When we think of Imran as a complete all-rounder i believe it is period in which he best combined competent batting - with 85mph to 90 mph bowling.
Based on my research & understanding of this period of his career & speaking to people who actually saw him bowl, this "peak" was from Karachi 1980 when he scored his 1st test Hundred to the 1988 series in WI, when his bowling was still quick. Before that 1980 test hundred, Imran was just like Warne or Vaas - a bowler who could bat.
During this period his aggregate was: 44 tests, 1881 runs @ 40.02 & 216 wickets 17.51 - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/40560.html?class=1;spanmax1=1+Jan+1989;spanmin1=1+ NOV+1980;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allro und;view=innings
Still superb - but the reason i would still place him in the elite "bowling-all rounder" category, instead of "complete all-rounder" is because the majority of his runs in this period came from # 7. All his 100s & 50s during this period except his hundred @ Oval 1987 where he batted @ 6 (seemed tactical, since he wasn't a better batsman than Ijaz Ahmed) were @ 7 too - 5th Test: England v Pakistan at The Oval, Aug 6-11, 1987 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
I cut off the 1988 WI series with his bowling, because after that series his bowling declined pace wise & in its use. After the 1987 world cup semi-final he had retired - but he was coaxed back out a to tour the windies. They are no clips of that 88 tour of the windies unfortunately, but if you look at some clips of him bowling in ENG 87 or the WC - its clear he was still fast @ age 35, a few months before the Caribbean tour:
Plus i've spoken to journalist, former players (Roger Harper) & my Uncle in trinidad who saw him bowl in the 88 series & they say he was still sharp then.
However after 1988 until retirement his batting kept getting better to point where in the 1992 world cup final he was batting @ # 3, scoring his highest test score in AUS batting @ # 5 & a general top solid 6 batsman. But his bowling had clearly declined in pace & potency after 88.
This is why his batting averaged soared to 50 come the end of his test career, but clearly it didn't soar to 50 while he was still potent as a bowler.
Basic all-rounders
These are the category of all-rounders who i would say whose abilities as batsmen or bowlers that were equal. This at times is even shown by the similarities in their batting & bowling averages. Due to this their roles in their respective teams, throughout their careers tended to fluctuate.
- Vinoo Mankad, Wilfred Rhodes, Trevor Bailey, Andrew Flintoff, Lance Klusener, Monty Noble, Jimmy Sinclair, Dwayne Bravo, Ravi Shastri, Craig White, Sakib Al-Hasan, Tiger Lance, Afridi, Razzaq, Azhar Mahmood
Not all-rounders:
This is category people at times mixed up & exaggerate. These players usually bat @ # 8, some of of them even have test hundreds, while contributing useful test runs - but they are not "bowling all-rounders" - just simply bowlers who are competent enough as batsmen to not be considered "tail-enders".
Or maybe they are batsmen who just bowl a bit & get a lot of wickets with their part-timer medium pace/spin - some of them even have 5 wicket hauls. But their bowling is strong enough to elevate them to the "batting all-rounder" status.
- Mitchell Johnson, Swann, Broad, Giles, Roger Harper, Ashwin, Brett Lee, Jason Gillespie, Harbhajan Singh, Malcolm Marshall, Warne, Vaas, Ray Lindwall, Wasim Akram, Craig Matthews, John Bracewell, Bruce Taylor, Pat Symcox, Nicky Boje, Bapu Nadkarni, Gubby Allen
Asif Iqbal, Doug Walters, Andrew Symonds, Waugh Brother, Bev Congdon, Ted Dexter, Walter Hammond, Hansie Cronje, Sanath Jayasuriya, Dilshan, Allan Border etc etc (this is a long category)
Using the above breakdown, some modern all-rounders in the game that are showing real talent that are likely to be big future players - Stokes, Corey Anderson, A Morkel (not as long term of course), James Faulkner, Andre Russell, M Marsh, Ali, Angelo Matthews, T Perera - all of them are in the "basic all-rounder" category still. Only Matthews & Ali i would say are clearly a batting all-rounders.
However this is just my 2 cents on the matter....
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