Best Batsman Besides Bradman (inactive players only)

[subshakerz]

Sure. I am not trying to convince you dude, just laying my own viewpoint. But yes I agree with you on this.

I know, but as we go back and forth, the more I realize that there isn't any clear case differentiating them. Kinda appropriate.

 

[subshakerz]

Viv isn’t really at the same level as the other three unless you think batting strike rate is really that important. Smith should end up at that level though.

Viv had the greatest peak of any batsman barring Bradman in history. And his overall record has no holes. In his time, he was the clear no.1 bat in the world.

The difference in averages is simply because he played no minnows or weak opposition, not even SL. Add in Bangladesh/Zimbabwe and he averages 52 and suddenly nobody has any issues with him.

 

[Godard]

Viv isn’t really at the same level as the other three unless you think batting strike rate is really that important. Smith should end up at that level though.

Viv, other than Hobbs, faced the toughest batting conditions out of the people mentioned in his overall career, he never faced any soft attacks that Sobers/Tendy/Smith all did. His record is perfectly rounded(only Smith and Tendulkar are more complete in this regard). His psychological domination of bowlers can never be quantified. And yes, batting SR which meant he could completely change the flow of a game in the matter of a session, is also important. Many factors for Viv. The fact that he never played any soft attacks and his late career slump bringing down his average is why people jump to conclusions. And also Viv has the best peak of any one not named Bradman.

 

[the big bambino]

They were cool, but still not Test cricket. Higher level or something of an exhibition? Regardless, it's still not a huge sample to be adding to 4 Tests.

super tests were several levels higher than test cricket. You just need to look at the personnel to understand something that should be obvious to you.

 

[subshakerz]

Viv, other than Hobbs, faced the toughest batting conditions out of the people mentioned in his overall career, he never faced any soft attacks that Sobers/Tendy/Smith all did. His record is perfectly rounded(only Smith and Tendulkar are more complete in this regard). His psychological domination of bowlers can never be quantified. And yes, batting SR which meant he could completely change the flow of a game in the matter of a session, is also important. Many factors for Viv. The fact that he never played any soft attacks and his late career slump bringing down his average is why people jump to conclusions. And also Viv has the best peak of any one not named Bradman.

Bowlers Viv outright dominated in his peak: peak Lillee, peak Thomson, peak Imran, peak Hadlee, peak Botham, Willis, Underwood, Snow, Qadir and the Indian spin quartet.

Nobody comes close to that.

 

[Godard]

Bowlers Viv outright dominated in his peak: peak Lillee, peak Thomson, peak Imran, peak Hadlee, peak Botham, Willis, Underwood, Qadir and the Indian spin quartet.

Nobody comes close to that.

One of my favourite cricket stories is that during that infamous 1975 WI tour of Aus, midway apparently Gordon Greenidge was scared out of his wits and wouldn’t open again, is a young Viv did and dominated Lille Thomson in the second half of the series. Then in 1979, maybe Thomson wasn’t at his peak(still quite fast tho), but Rodney Hogg was one of the best bowlers in the world and Lillee was at his peak. So it was one of the most formidable home pace attacks you could imagine, and Viv smashed them both in the tests and the ODI tri series.

 

[Line and Length]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Viv dominated Lillee. My recollection was that of a fascinating rivalry.

 

[subshakerz]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Viv dominated Lillee. My recollection was that of a fascinating rivalry.

He did in 79/80.

Lillee had his best moments against Viv but mostly outside the peak period.

 

[Godard]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Viv dominated Lillee. My recollection was that of a fascinating rivalry.

He dominated peak Lillee in the WSC and in that 1979 series, and for the second half of the 1975 series. Lille had his moments too ofcourse, the 1980 series and parts of the WSC. But overall Viv averaged 49 against Lillee, so the record is clearly in his favour. Also Viv dominated those bowlers in their peak at a point of time, not all the time. And he has a favourable record against all, unlike Sachin, Lara etc.

 

[Godard]

Few batsmen has dominated all the great bowlers of their time at their peak. Viv is one, and he has a favourable record against all.

 

[Coronis]

Bowlers Viv outright dominated in his peak: peak Lillee, peak Thomson, peak Imran, peak Hadlee, peak Botham, Willis, Underwood, Snow, Qadir and the Indian spin quartet.

Nobody comes close to that.

Imran and Hadlee were most definitely not in their peak fyi

 

[subshakerz]

Imran and Hadlee were most definitely not in their peak fyi

Imran was at the start of his peak in 1980 just after WSC, when Viv dominated him in Pakistan.

Hadlee true, Viv only scored well against him in 84 past Viv's own peak. But he has at least a series against each top bowler in peak form when he scored.

 

[Godard]

Still Viv dominated most of them at a particular point of time, and overall has a favourable record against all, and considering the assortment of great bowlers he faced, I’m not sure anyone matches him. Surely not Lara or Sachin.

 

[subshakerz]

So the relative weaknesses in each of the no.2 contenders:

Viv - His super high peak was followed by a fairly long period below ATG standards

Tendulkar - Consistent but never quite dominant against great attacks or with great series hauls

Hobbs - Lack of exposure to varied worldclass attacks, smaller sample size of tests

Sobers - Higher home dominance relatively, smaller sample size of tests somewhat

Smith - Didnt face worldclass attacks often enough, played longest in the easiest batting conditions, ugly to watch and that shouldn't be rewarded

 

[bagapath]

after a lot of hand wringing went for Sachin Tendulkar. for his all round batsmanship and longevity. impossible to split these names.

 

[Godard]

With Viv, yes 1982-91 overall was a period below ATG level. So that’s one way of looking at that. Another way could be that he like a normal dominated for a decent period(76-81)after his debut years(74-75), then had a minor slump(82-83), second peak(84-88), the another last slump. But his second peak wasn’t as good as Tendy’s to account for the late slump he had like Tendy. Perhaps this could be accounted to some extent because he didn’t face any soft attacks. But Tendulkar’s first peak lasted for longer than Richards. Also unlike Lara he didn’t retire at the end of his second peak(although Viv’s mid career slump wasn’t half as bad as Lara’s).

 

[Migara]

Only thing that tilts the balance towards Lara and SRT are that they played better slower bowlers than Viv. Although he outright dominated pace bowlers (with possible exception of Hadlee and Kapil Dev), the ones who consistently troubled were spinners, mainly Chandra and Qadir. SRT and Lara played spin of much higher quality. It would have been interesting how Viv would have played Murali, Warne, kumble or Saqlain where these were adept in attack, defense as well as mystery than any spinner Viv played.

My vote goes to Sobers BTW.

 

[Godard]

Only thing that tilts the balance towards Lara and SRT are that they played better slower bowlers than Viv. Although he outright dominated pace bowlers (with possible exception of Hadlee and Kapil Dev), the ones who consistently troubled were spinners, mainly Chandra and Qadir. SRT and Lara played spin of much higher quality. It would have been interesting how Viv would have played Murali, Warne, kumble or Saqlain where these were adept in attack, defense as well as mystery than any spinner Viv played.

My vote goes to Sobers BTW.

Viv didn’t play any spinner the level of Murali, Warne etc, but he didn’t struggle vs Chandra and Qadir. the 1981 series in Pak and the 1987 series in WI, he dominated Qadir. He had a decent series vs the quartet in Ind(debut serie) barring first match, and smashed them in WI 1976. Overall he has favourable record vs both. When did Sobers play a spinner the level of Murali and Warne? Also Lara had a genuine struggle vs express pace, which you are ignoring.

 

[Migara]

Bradman tier

Basically the God tier or the cheat code tier

 

[Migara]

Viv didn’t play any spinner the level of Murali, Warne etc, but he didn’t struggle vs Chandra and Qadir. the 1981 series in Pak and the 1987 series in WI, he dominated Qadir. He had a decent series vs the quartet in Ind(debut serie) barring first match, and smashed them in WI 1976. Overall he has favourable record vs both. When did Sobers play a spinner the level of Murali and Warne?

Chandra was in his last legs when Viv dominated him. But even Viv admits he was the toughest to handle. Sobers did play Laker, Benaud and Lock. Not quite Warne and Murali, but pretty much Underwood, Chandra, Qadir standard.