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weldone

Hall of Fame Member
I understand what he's trying to say, it's just not always true. In fact the opposite is often the case, in all forms of cricket. Plenty of batsmen get bogged down not playing shots (which puts the game firmly in the bowler's control) and end up getting out as a result whereas someone coming out playing their shots can take control of the game
I agree with you about ODI and T20, and I don't think Pujara had those formats in mind (he never has) when he said that. In limited overs cricket, a few slow overs may create immense run rate pressure (yes, that word 'pressure' exists in this context too - regardless of what rodk thinks) which prompt batsmen do harakiri later.

But in test cricket, all great batsmen know how to come out of bad situations through sheer grit determination and defensive technique. Batsmen tend to commit mistake after hitting a few boundaries to good balls in tricky conditions. How many times I've seen batsmen covert 10(40) to centuries is not funny.

Someone mentioned Sehwag but he didn't play abnormally aggressively in tough situations. In fact, that was his normal cricket. I think Pujara's comment refers to those batsmen who try to hit out of bad situations and after the threat is over plan to resume 'normal cricket'.

Also, just because we are discussing Sehwag and Pujara in this post, let me put it out there and this is the first time you're hearing this from anyone: Pujara>Sehwag.
There, I said it.
 
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TheJediBrah

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I agree with you about ODI and T20, and I don't think Pujara had those formats in mind (he never has) when he said that. In limited overs cricket, a few slow overs may create immense run rate pressure (yes, that word 'pressure' exists in this context too - regardless of what rodk thinks) which prompt batsmen do harakiri later.

But in test cricket, all great batsmen know how to come out of bad situations through sheer grit determination and defensive technique. Batsmen tend to commit mistake after hitting a few boundaries to good balls in tricky conditions. How many times I've seen batsmen covert 10(40) to centuries is not funny.

Someone mentioned Sehwag but he didn't play abnormally aggressively in tough situations. In fact, that was his normal cricket. I think Pujara's comment refers to those batsmen who try to hit out of bad situations and after the threat is over plan to resume 'normal cricket'.

Also, just because we are discussing Sehwag and Pujara in this post, let me put it out there and this is the first time you're hearing this from anyone: Pujara>Sehwag.
There, I said it.
That's why I said it's true for Pujara. But the way the quote came across was that he was saying that for everyone who plays shots everytime is because they aren't in control. Which is just not true. It might have just been a bit lost in translation so to speak.
 

Victor Ian

International Coach
Sehwag is a personal favourite. I'll never agree, even if you are right. The like is for all of that above it.
 

Victor Ian

International Coach
That's why I said it's true for Pujara. But the way the quote came across was that he was saying that for everyone who plays shots everytime is because they aren't in control. Which is just not true. It might have just been a bit lost in translation so to speak.
Maybe that is just a space thing. Instagram hardly seems the place to post a definitive essay on the psychology of batting. I don't know. I read it as fine. I wish we could have a batsman say something brief with the potential to be misconstrued yet make 100.
 

rodk

School Boy/Girl Captain
Shot making and test match batting approaches. Interesting concepts until reality sets in.

Overnight, New Zealand against Pakistan. New Zealand declared at some point in the third innings and now Pakistan is chasing 280 runs on day 5. I pick it up about 30 or so minutes after the AM session began.

(The graphics on the tube were maddening. They showed how many overs Pakistan used, but not whether Pakistan started the day at bat, making it hard for me know how many overs were left. About an hour later, there was a graphic that summarized each of the innings, but if I could have added the over subtotals and then subtracted that from 450 in the amount of time the graphic appeared, I would be doing something with life besides watching sports on tv all night.)

But with most of the day left, 280 seemed like a number that left the outcome in very much in doubt.

Pakistan got 518 against them in one innings last week, and about 340 in their first innings in the ongoing match. Surely they could score.

On the other hand, getting 10 wickets (one already down when I turned it on) on rough fifth day pitch seemed doable.

And the potential for either or both teams to waste overs (intentionally or not) to keep the match from finishing at all seemed highly possible.

Then I observed Pakistan batting.

On the face of it, they are following the advice given above: being patient, not pressing or forcing their way to runs. They are defending the wicket so each batsman survives a while longer, rarely swinging, and mostly tapping away any ball that is not perfectly placed for a scoring hit. They are looking at any number of bowls that were bounced well over the wicket. Maidens and one and two run overs come and go. The deficit narrows by singles and occasional doubles. To me as a noob, each passing over seems like Pakistan is shortening the game without getting really closing in on the target.

Still, the conventional wisdom of their approach is confirmed by a tv announcer who chastised a batsman for stepping into a bowl that was not perfect by asking "What was he thinking?" even after it was a double.

Yet they are so passive with their batting that that they manage to bat their way into, if I'm not mistaken, three tips that were caught and an LBW without really even swinging their bats and trying score. Their adherence to the conventional wisdom has pushed the game further and further from their grasp. It was essentially Game Over at the lunch break, when they were still more or less 200 runs behind, and the possibility of making up the deficit was now close to nil just on the number of overs that were left, much less who the remaining batsmen were. I didn't bother watching the rest, but the end of the Pakistan lineup went all out in about 36 overs and the result wasn't close. I expect the Pakistan batsmen after lunch just weren't good players to avoid being out long enough to salvage a draw.

So what happened? Did Pakistan cave to pressure? I suppose some would argue for that. But it seems incongruous to think that a team that employed the right strategy caved to pressure.

Did it not cave, maintaining the right batting discipline to the end, but simply getting beat by a better team or a team that executed better? I suppose some would argue for that.

Did it cave by relying on conventional wisdom when its history suggested it could score at will if it hit away? Maybe.

Was it just off its game? Perhaps, though the odds don't favor the possibility that all 11 players on a team or even most of them are coincidentally having bad physical days or batting slumps.

From the outside, it just looked like there were as many as three different problems.

First, it seemed like the Pakistan players didn't show up after their first batsman went down on the first bowl of their second innings and that they threw in the towel after that. Most of their guys looked beaten and as if they would rather be doing something else. The appearance of discipline while batting masked lack of effort, focus, and intent to win.

That doesn't relate to pressure. It relates to professionalism.

Second, if they still had their heads in the game, it seemed like their strategy was designed to fail and their refusal to adjust from a losing strategy was more about their thought process than their skills. They had a winning hand; if teams can score 140 in t10 -- and I know it is easier to bat in that league than in tests -- then 280 runs in more or less 90 overs probably should be converted to a win more often than not. But when it became 230 or so runs in about 60 overs, winning got more an more doubtful and the prospect that something good was bound to happen later got further and further away, and that Pakistan made no attempt to change its luck by changing its approach is pretty telling about their mindset.

Or third, Pakistan played like cowards by trying playing in a fashion that tries to make it seem like they are not cowards. Batting just to survive is a lot different than having the mindset of "Just Give Me the Damn Ball." https://www.amazon.com/Just-Give-Me-Damn-Ball/dp/0446521450

People on this board keep insisting the game is about pressure. I'm not buying that unless you are defining pressure in a way that links it to desire.

I don't think the outcome was caused by Pakistan giving in to pressure. It was the result of the absence of pressure. They were playing not to lose with the result they could not win.

I get it that teams in all sports occasionally throw in the towel and don't play hard. But that usually is associated with either being over matched, getting bad breaks, getting routed on a particular day, or exhaustion in a travel heavy grueling schedule.

But not being able to turn it on at the end of a close, important contest and chucking a game away without even trying? That's bizarre. It gets coaches fired after the game, and teams immediately torn down.

If that is a normal feature of cricket, I'm not sure how people watch it.
 
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weldone

Hall of Fame Member
... if teams can score 140 in t10 ....
I can score more in stickcricket - does that mean I can bat well in test matches? It's been weeks here and you still don't (even try to) understand how different formats are. 3 year-olds learn faster than you.
 

rodk

School Boy/Girl Captain
I can score more in stickcricket - does that mean I can bat well in test matches? It's been weeks here and you still don't (even try to) understand how different formats are. 3 year-olds learn faster than you.
If all you got is insults, say nothing more. It ain't worth my time to resist trolls speaking in tongues.
 

SillyCowCorner1

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Pakistan got 518 against them in one innings last week, and about 340 in their first innings in the ongoing match. Surely they could score.
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So what happened? Did Pakistan cave to pressure? I suppose some would argue for that. But it seems incongruous to think that a team that employed the right strategy caved to pressure.
No doubt about that. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with a 'Pakistan batting implosion'. If you actually follow cricket(or try to follow it, you would know what this is: SEE Inzi's run-outs also for more context)

They are looking at any number of bowls that were bounced well over the wicket.
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First, it seemed like the Pakistan players didn't show up after their first batsman went down on the first bowl of their second innings
This is a jargon (for balls) I have seen used on cricket troll pages on Instagram by mostly Indians. Are you Indian, rodk?

But when it became 230 or so runs in about 60 overs, winning got more an more doubtful and the prospect that something good was bound to happen later got further and further away, and that Pakistan made no attempt to change its luck by changing its approach is pretty telling about their mindset.
Are you really questioning this without taking into consideration the state of a 5th day wicket in tests against spinners? Do you even cricket bro?


If that is a normal feature of cricket, I'm not sure how people watch it.
Nope, you actually got it wrong. This is why we love it.
 

andmark

International Captain
You're in for a treat if you haven't seen Inzamam ul-Haq's run outs. It's the stuff of folk lore.
 

rodk

School Boy/Girl Captain
This is a jargon (for balls) I have seen used on cricket troll pages on Instagram by mostly Indians. Are you Indian, rodk?
No. Had no idea the terminology was crude. I apologize generally and to those who are offended and to those who know I offended someone.

I just expected that if the actor is bowling to someone, that each one was a bowl, just like if the actor is punching someone, each one is a punch.

English is a funny thing at times and clearly can lead to bad results. Wasn't the line "the thing that separates the great societies of the US and England is a common language"?
 

SillyCowCorner1

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No. Had no idea the terminology was crude. I apologize generally and to those who are offended and to those who know I offended someone.

I just expected that if the actor is bowling to someone, that each one was a bowl, just like if the actor is punching someone, each one is a punch.

English is a funny thing at times and clearly can lead to bad results. Wasn't the line "the thing that separates the great societies of the US and England is a common language"?
In cricket a bowler delivers a 'ball', not a 'bowl'
 

rodk

School Boy/Girl Captain
Are you really questioning this without taking into consideration the state of a 5th day wicket in tests against spinners?
I don't know more about it than what appears on the scorecard -- game conditions, field conditions, environment, small oval, elevation, who are spinners, etc, but within about 5 minutes I did come across this game result Scorecard - 1990-1991 New Zealand v Sri Lanka - 31/01/1991 which shows NZ batting for three straight days and scoring 671-4 runs including 303 on the last day of the test (which ended drawn and was going to end that way as its opponent Sri Lanka, was only allowed to bat once).

A deficit of 280 does not seem like the time for a pro team of all-stars to hit the panic button given that history.
 

SillyCowCorner1

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I don't know more about it than what appears on the scorecard -- game conditions, field conditions, environment, small oval, elevation, who are spinners, etc, but within about 5 minutes I did come across this game result Scorecard - 1990-1991 New Zealand v Sri Lanka - 31/01/1991 which shows NZ batting for three straight days and scoring 671-4 runs including 303 on the last day of the test (which ended drawn and was going to end that way as its opponent Sri Lanka, was only allowed to bat once).

A deficit of 280 does not seem like the time for a pro team of all-stars to hit the panic button given that history.
That pitch appeared to have some bit of juice in it on the 1st day, that's why the Kiwis were bowled out, and SL had a few overs in the day.

Turns out the wicket got better and transformed into a road as the days progressed.

SL got a 323 run first innings lead. The fact that they were not bowled out (Mahanama was absent hurt).

NZ's modus operandi would have been to bat to save the test, which they did. I expect a fifth day wicket in NZ not to help the spinners. Look at Asoka de Silva's figures :lol:
 
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SillyCowCorner1

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This is one of the reasons we love this game:


Lara's 153 not out against Australia | ESPNcricinfo 25 year Anniversary | ESPNcricinfo


To win, West Indies needed 308 against McGrath, Gillespie, Warne and MacGill. Unbeaten on 2 on the fourth evening, Lara had a restless night, tormented by his dismissal in the first innings to the short ball. Before dawn on the final day he rang Gomez, who went over to his friend's hotel to talk, to plan. In front of a mirror Lara rehearsed his momentous innings in a more clinical and focused manner than the cricket dreamers were doing. The incredible thing - half the team gone for 105, 38 the second-highest score, the final 63 runs with Ambrose and Walsh for company - was that all was real.
 
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TheJediBrah

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I don't know more about it than what appears on the scorecard -- game conditions, field conditions, environment, small oval, elevation, who are spinners, etc, but within about 5 minutes I did come across this game result Scorecard - 1990-1991 New Zealand v Sri Lanka - 31/01/1991 which shows NZ batting for three straight days and scoring 671-4 runs including 303 on the last day of the test (which ended drawn and was going to end that way as its opponent Sri Lanka, was only allowed to bat once).

A deficit of 280 does not seem like the time for a pro team of all-stars to hit the panic button given that history.
You still haven't figured out that pitch conditions can vary greatly? Cricket is a far more complex game than baseball, the more you follow it the more you will figure these things out
 

Spark

Global Moderator
I don't know more about it than what appears on the scorecard -- game conditions, field conditions, environment, small oval, elevation, who are spinners, etc, but within about 5 minutes I did come across this game result Scorecard - 1990-1991 New Zealand v Sri Lanka - 31/01/1991 which shows NZ batting for three straight days and scoring 671-4 runs including 303 on the last day of the test (which ended drawn and was going to end that way as its opponent Sri Lanka, was only allowed to bat once).

A deficit of 280 does not seem like the time for a pro team of all-stars to hit the panic button given that history.
A score of 280 in subcontinental conditions is typically an insurmountable challenge. What happened to Pakistan is very common.
 

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
A score of 280 in subcontinental conditions is typically an insurmountable challenge. What happened to Pakistan is very common.
but but batters swing 140 in t10. not getting 280 is just poor strategy. two t10 matches can get 280. it is just 140 doubles. i just checked the team doesn't have 40 coaches. is cricket even a sport? is the dead-bat strategy working? i don't think they can plan. at least introduce eleven new stat metrics that can show you how to get 280 in 20 overs. how can professional sportsmen be so callous?
 

cnerd123

likes this
Lol Rodk is quite a beginner, I'll give him that. I remember watching an India Pakistan game when I was a kid new to the sport, like 10 or 11. India were 9 down needing a lot or runs to finish a runchase. Wasim was bowling to Nehra, who hit two fours and a single, and Zak got out next ball to end the game

I remember thinking 'if only Nehra could have kept strike and kept batting that way, India would have won'

Rodk should try to play cricket IMO. Also needs to watch more than a handful of games to fully wrap his head around how the game works.

Also reminds me of n00b MMA fans who wonder 'why didn't he just punch the guy in the face?' or 'why didn't he just stand up'. Like lol, come on, it's not that easy. Try to understand what the players are struggling with here.
 

cnerd123

likes this
You still haven't figured out that pitch conditions can vary greatly? Cricket is a far more complex game than baseball, the more you follow it the more you will figure these things out
Comparing between eras and conditions, even within just one format can feel like comparing between two separate sports sometimes. 'Oh Team A overcame a 50 point deficit in this basketball game vs Team X, why couldn't Team B overcome a 20 point defecit in this football game Vs Team Y?' would be a similar question.
 
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