Australians watching a different game

[Richard]

As Corey inferred, swing bowling still has more 'art' than science' involved - things happen to a ball in flight to affect its trajectory but we still don't have a total understanding. Obviously seam position and speed are important factors (witness how often the ball swings when the seam is scrambled in flight but it then straightens up after the pitch and goes like a boomerang - wonder if Jones wants to buy that as an excuse?), as are dampness and general roughness of one side or the other of the ball, humidity or 'heaviness' of the atmosphere and so on.

Regarding Massie and 'that match' (see History of the Ashes Part 2), what made Massie such a dangerous proposition was only in part the prodigious amount of movement he extracted from the conditions - it was the LATENESS of the swing.

There are two possible explanations I can think of (both are totally pulled out of the air - or out of where the sun doesn't shine)

1. Perhaps the fingers may not have been totally behind the ball at release and that, somehow, the ball rotated into the 'perfect' position some time during flight.
2. The speed was absolutely critical for the seam position, and as it decelerated during flight, the aerodynamics causing the pressure difference resulting in the movement became 'perfect' and the ball started to move late in flight.

(2) seems more likely than (1), although my guess is that there might have been a combination of both involved. Either way, a year later, he had crashed and burned, so it must have been something so tenuous that he was barely able to grasp it for one golden weekend.

Maybe a genuine swing bowler would like to add their thoughts - I understand that you are an esoteric lot who don't feel comfortable disclosing 'trade secrets', but it's all right. I won't tell.

I'm an out-and-out genuine swing-bowler, and I can't explain a thing - I just hold the ball seam-up and it moves.
I can't control which way it moves (occasionally it goes the wrong way) nor can I make it move once I come back to bowl a second spell (yet I can swing age-old balls with a decent shine in the nets - it's to do with something going wrong in my action not the ageing of the ball), nor occasionally can I stop it moving when I don't want it to.
And if anyone could decipher the secrets of making the ball move late rather than early everyone would be World-class bowlers - because on the rare occasion (exceptionally rare mind you) I get it to go late I trouble even the very best batsmen at our club (including a couple of Devon regulars), even bowling in the mid-60s (mph) as I assume I do most of the time.

 

[Swervy]

I'm an out-and-out genuine swing-bowler, and I can't explain a thing - I just hold the ball seam-up and it moves.
I can't control which way it moves (occasionally it goes the wrong way) nor can I make it move once I come back to bowl a second spell (yet I can swing age-old balls with a decent shine in the nets - it's to do with something going wrong in my action not the ageing of the ball), nor occasionally can I stop it moving when I don't want it to.
And if anyone could decipher the secrets of making the ball move late rather than early everyone would be World-class bowlers - because on the rare occasion (exceptionally rare mind you) I get it to go late I trouble even the very best batsmen at our club (including a couple of Devon regulars), even bowling in the mid-60s (mph) as I assume I do most of the time.

erm..they can cant they

the chances are that if you are bowling at 65 mph roughly, any swing you are getting will be coming striaght from the hand, and if that troubles the best batsmen at your club, I would seriously doubt his batting abilities.

the general thing is the faster the ball is bowled, the later it will swing.

 

[BoyBrumby]

One thing I'd be interested to know from fellow seamers is how you (any of you) hold the ball to maximise swing.

I'm sure those of you of a scientific bent can find all sorts of reasons for swing, but all I can go on is what I know empirically. The ball does seem to do more when conditions are overcast & the air is a little "heavy" & I personally find I get more swing when I hold the ball more loosely, with index & middle fingers togther. For a rough approximation of my grip put your thumb on your ring finger & keep the two fingers together.

Interestingly (for those of you sad enough to have done it! ) you might like to try to seperate your index & middle fingers in to "V" now. Amazing the extra strain it places on the back of the hand, eh?

 

[Swervy]

One thing I'd be interested to know from fellow seamers is how you (any of you) hold the ball to maximise swing.

I'm sure those of you of a scientific bent can find all sorts of reasons for swing, but all I can go on is what I know empirically. The ball does seem to do more when conditions are overcast & the air is a little "heavy" & I personally find I get more swing when I hold the ball more loosely, with index & middle fingers togther. For a rough approximation of my grip put your thumb on your ring finger & keep the two fingers together.

Interestingly (for those of you sad enough to have done it! ) you might like to try to seperate your index & middle fingers in to "V" now. Amazing the extra strain it places on the back of the hand, eh?

possible explanation for the losse grip aiding the swing of a ball is that the fingers will actually aid the velocity of the ball (some bowlers will put a ball in the palm of the hand and bowl it from there when wanting to bowl a slower ball, with little regard for the seam position). The velocity of the ball is crucial to swing bowling,depending on the condition of the ball,small differences in velocity will result in swing or no swing. Also it is so much easier to control the seam position out of the ends of the fingers.

Any mathematical working out of when a ball will swing etc can only really be done on a perfect sphere...each individual ball has slight imperfections in shape and surface which means each individual ball will swing differently...so really swing bowling is either a case of trial and error, with a process of iteration towards whata bowler would consider the best way to swing an individual ball in unique circumstances (no two minutes in a days play has exactly the same conditions), or alternatively luck to some degree comes into it, ie the ball which swings really nicely from ball one...

 

[Richard]

erm..they can cant they

the chances are that if you are bowling at 65 mph roughly, any swing you are getting will be coming striaght from the hand, and if that troubles the best batsmen at your club, I would seriously doubt his batting abilities.

the general thing is the faster the ball is bowled, the later it will swing.

Err, nope.
Mostly my swing comes straight from the hand.
Occasionally it goes late.
When it goes early it sometimes troubles third-XI standard players but you can clearly see the difference in class when I bowl at first-XI players; when it goes late I take things like my 7-13 when I'm bowling at third-XI players and cause a few problems to the first-XI players.

 

[Richard]

One thing I'd be interested to know from fellow seamers is how you (any of you) hold the ball to maximise swing.

I'm sure those of you of a scientific bent can find all sorts of reasons for swing, but all I can go on is what I know empirically. The ball does seem to do more when conditions are overcast & the air is a little "heavy" & I personally find I get more swing when I hold the ball more loosely, with index & middle fingers togther. For a rough approximation of my grip put your thumb on your ring finger & keep the two fingers together.

Interestingly (for those of you sad enough to have done it! ) you might like to try to seperate your index & middle fingers in to "V" now. Amazing the extra strain it places on the back of the hand, eh?

The ball always does more when it's damp and\or overcast, same way it always does more at night than during day (though we mere club players don't often get the chance to notice the night thing).
But I can't say this V thing is anything I've ever noticed... an interesting one... will try that this Friday.
Usually I bowl with the fingers bang together and the seam canted towards third-man. Recently I've tried developing the off-cutter but it's still in it's infancy.

 

[Swervy]

Err, nope.
Mostly my swing comes straight from the hand.
Occasionally it goes late.
When it goes early it sometimes troubles third-XI standard players but you can clearly see the difference in class when I bowl at first-XI players; when it goes late I take things like my 7-13 when I'm bowling at third-XI players and cause a few problems to the first-XI players.

the only way you would be getting late swing is if you are a) bowling faster or b) the breeze has taken you delicate form of bowling and made it move in the air, but that would take a pretty special little breeze.

Swing out of the hand is useless really, even a batsman of very mediocre skill will quickly latch on to that, simply because there is so much time to react.

I am afraid Richard, bowling at 65mph, you will not be getting any late swing by the definition of waht most people would consider late swing..it simply defies physics

 

[Swervy]

The ball always does more when it's damp and\or overcast, same way it always does more at night than during day (though we mere club players don't often get the chance to notice the night thing).
But I can't say this V thing is anything I've ever noticed... an interesting one... will try that this Friday.
Usually I bowl with the fingers bang together and the seam canted towards third-man. Recently I've tried developing the off-cutter but it's still in it's infancy.

not true...the ball doesnt know whether its day or night...it will only swing more if atmospheric conditions are favourable. Too many variables to really go into..but warmer air actually holds more moisture..so in fact the warmer it is (up to a certain level anyway), which it tends to be during the day, the more there is in the air. On a very hot day, when the sun is going down, the temperature cools towards the dew point, the an dmoisture then will take effect..until the temp gets to dew point when the moisture will effectively condense and form dew..and then you will never swing the ball...

That is just the rough basics of it anyway

 

[Richard]

the only way you would be getting late swing is if you are a) bowling faster or b) the breeze has taken you delicate form of bowling and made it move in the air, but that would take a pretty special little breeze.

Swing out of the hand is useless really, even a batsman of very mediocre skill will quickly latch on to that, simply because there is so much time to react.

I am afraid Richard, bowling at 65mph, you will not be getting any late swing by the definition of waht most people would consider late swing..it simply defies physics

By late swing I mean less than a metre from the bat, which anyone will have trouble with... obviously swing which starts just after the hand isn't too much use against club standard batsmen, as I mentioned.
But as I've mentioned also, to third-XI standard batsmen swing from the hand can cause the odd problem.
And like it or not I have managed to get late swing, with results discussed.

 

[Richard]

not true...the ball doesnt know whether its day or night...it will only swing more if atmospheric conditions are favourable. Too many variables to really go into..but warmer air actually holds more moisture..so in fact the warmer it is (up to a certain level anyway), which it tends to be during the day, the more there is in the air. On a very hot day, when the sun is going down, the temperature cools towards the dew point, the an dmoisture then will take effect..until the temp gets to dew point when the moisture will effectively condense and form dew..and then you will never swing the ball...

That is just the rough basics of it anyway

Er... so why does the ball almost always swing more at night than during day then?
Fairly obviously because something in the atmospheric conditions causes it. Dew, obviously, is amongst them.

 

[Swervy]

By late swing I mean less than a metre from the bat, which anyone will have trouble with... obviously swing which starts just after the hand isn't too much use against club standard batsmen, as I mentioned.
But as I've mentioned also, to third-XI standard batsmen swing from the hand can cause the odd problem.
And like it or not I have managed to get late swing, with results discussed.

so you are bowling at barely medium pace,and you are saying you can swing the ball within the last metre..ok

First off, the last metre would produce hardly any perceptable swing...certainly not perceptable by you as the bowler,and certainly a managable amount by the batsman Late swing generally is considered to be occuring in the final 5 or 6 yards of the balls flight...not the last metre...that swing would easily be negated by a simple moving forward of the front leg by the batsman.

If the ball leaves your hand at 65mph, it is probable that by the time it gets to the batsman its only travelling at 45-50mph..and that my friend is far too slow to produce late swing....and if the ball did move only in the last metre, I think the ball would be unplayable,as humans wouldnt be able to react fast enough to swing that would be perceptable by you and the batsman (ie it would have to move quite a distance in a very short space of time)

Again I would suggest a) you are a lot faster than you think b) your bowling defies all physical logic or c) you talk a pile of shite

 

[Swervy]

Er... so why does the ball almost always swing more at night than during day then?
Fairly obviously because something in the atmospheric conditions causes it. Dew, obviously, is amongst them.

Dew stops balls swinging becuase it is impossible to get a rough side shiney side effect on the ball.....the ball swings more during twilight because the the temperature tends to fall towards the dew point temperature at that time. This effect rarely happns in this country as twilight takes ages and the drop in temperature is more gradual...it normally occurs in hot countries...and in more humid conditions.the hot air carries more moisture,which in the hot sun is evaporated..and the temp cools quickly, the moisture in the still warm air becomes more apparent and the ball swings,and when the temp hits the dew point..dew is formed..after the dew is formed,the ball wont swing,because the ball will be in no shape to do so..howevr movement of the pitch may well become an issue on a damp pitch

So in countries in the sub continent where this effect is strong,the ball will swing most in twilight....thats why batting second was a nightmare in the world cup during twilight (eng vs Pakistan..as it got darker, the ball swung less, Eng vs India as time went on,the ball moved more off the pitch)

Of course if the day is cloudy, the temperature will stay fairly constant day and night,and so if it swings at night, most likely it will swing during the day

 

[Richard]

so you are bowling at barely medium pace,and you are saying you can swing the ball within the last metre..ok

First off, the last metre would produce hardly any perceptable swing...certainly not perceptable by you as the bowler,and certainly a managable amount by the batsman Late swing generally is considered to be occuring in the final 5 or 6 yards of the balls flight...not the last metre...that swing would easily be negated by a simple moving forward of the front leg by the batsman.

If the ball leaves your hand at 65mph, it is probable that by the time it gets to the batsman its only travelling at 45-50mph..and that my friend is far too slow to produce late swing....and if the ball did move only in the last metre, I think the ball would be unplayable,as humans wouldnt be able to react fast enough to swing that would be perceptable by you and the batsman (ie it would have to move quite a distance in a very short space of time)

Again I would suggest a) you are a lot faster than you think b) your bowling defies all physical logic or c) you talk a pile of shite

I'm certainly no faster than I've said, I was timed 3 years ago and bowling normally my speed averaged 64.7mph.
What I'd suggest is that this supposed physical logic is the pile of shite, because there's absolutely no good reason I see for any of the stuff you've put forward given that, as I've mentioned, swing is still not totally possible to explain by physics.

 

[Richard]

Dew stops balls swinging becuase it is impossible to get a rough side shiney side effect on the ball.....the ball swings more during twilight because the the temperature tends to fall towards the dew point temperature at that time. This effect rarely happns in this country as twilight takes ages and the drop in temperature is more gradual...it normally occurs in hot countries...and in more humid conditions.the hot air carries more moisture,which in the hot sun is evaporated..and the temp cools quickly, the moisture in the still warm air becomes more apparent and the ball swings,and when the temp hits the dew point..dew is formed..after the dew is formed,the ball wont swing,because the ball will be in no shape to do so..howevr movement of the pitch may well become an issue on a damp pitch

So in countries in the sub continent where this effect is strong,the ball will swing most in twilight....thats why batting second was a nightmare in the world cup during twilight (eng vs Pakistan..as it got darker, the ball swung less, Eng vs India as time went on,the ball moved more off the pitch)

Of course if the day is cloudy, the temperature will stay fairly constant day and night,and so if it swings at night, most likely it will swing during the day

Why, then, is England (where the ball generally swings most anyway) generally regarded (however exaggerated this may be) as the place where batting second in day\night games is most difficult?
There is absolutely no doubt about the dusk period, whether this continues later into the night is a moot point (it could just as easily be the ball getting older), though there have unquestionably been occasions (such as the World Cup in South Africa) where it has continued into complete darkness, in both England-Pakistan and England-India.
On cloudy days anywhere in The World it will swing lots during day and even more during night.

 

[Swervy]

Why, then, is England (where the ball generally swings most anyway) generally regarded (however exaggerated this may be) as the place where batting second in day\night games is most difficult?
There is absolutely no doubt about the dusk period, whether this continues later into the night is a moot point (it could just as easily be the ball getting older), though there have unquestionably been occasions (such as the World Cup in South Africa) where it has continued into complete darkness, in both England-Pakistan and England-India.
On cloudy days anywhere in The World it will swing lots during day and even more during night.

the ball didnt really swing as much later in the night than during dusk in both those games.

In the India game alot of the movement was off the pitch later on,and the pitch became very skiddy (England collapsed so badly because the ball was really racing off the pitch due to the moisture on the pitch)..batting became much easier later on..I actually dont remember much swing at all in that one

same with the Pakistan game..the ball was swing everywhere early on..and not that much later on when it cooled down...there was a breeze as well which aided swing and also pprobably slowed down the development of dew, which meant any swing which was there may well have continued longer as the ball probably wasnt as wet.

Also remember that in England the change from day to night in the summer is very slow and so the second innings tends to be played mostly in good sunlight or twilight

 

[Richard]

Depends at what time of year - yes, in June and July (and therefore it's a bit of a waste of energy - in both respects - playing day\night cricket then).
In a couple of weeks' time, though, day\night cricket in England becomes a very, very worthwhile exercise and for the last month of the season there are times when the lights come into effect during the first-innings.

 

[Swervy]

Depends at what time of year - yes, in June and July (and therefore it's a bit of a waste of energy - in both respects - playing day\night cricket then).
In a couple of weeks' time, though, day\night cricket in England becomes a very, very worthwhile exercise and for the last month of the season there are times when the lights come into effect during the first-innings.

right..and your point being?

 

[Richard]

In the India game alot of the movement was off the pitch later on,and the pitch became very skiddy (England collapsed so badly because the ball was really racing off the pitch due to the moisture on the pitch)..batting became much easier later on..I actually dont remember much swing at all in that one

Khan and Nehra were both swinging the ball around corners early on, and I don't really remember it slowing down too much later.

 

[Swervy]

Khan and Nehra were both swinging the ball around corners early on, and I don't really remember it slowing down too much later.

it certainly did get easier to bat on later on in the innings

 

[Richard]

Oh, VERY late in the innings, yes (as evidenced by the fact that Flintoff, who was still pretty rubbish in those days, scored some later on), but not until about 35-40 overs.