Australian Doom and Gloom Thread

[Spikey]

I mean I don't want to be that guy.......but we've lost two of best talents over the last 15 years due to concussion and literal death. that's somewhat unusual.

and ofc one of our best batting talents is side-lined for the summer due to injury which is not typically something that happens to batters

 

[morgieb]

So the dearth of quality batting options in Australia, what is it put down to? End of a generation and not a lot of talent being exposed during this time? Coaching? Decrease in the quality of the Shield?

There are lots of different factors, but I think the two big ones are Shield pitches in recent years being pretty ordinary and a tendency to go all in on Pathways rather than making players earn it. Bowler-friendly pitches in particular have encouraged batters to focus too hard on survival or getting runs as quickly as possible.

While I think the 90's/00's talents was never completely sustainable, that it's fallen from "could pick up to 5 batting lineups that would be good at Test level" to "have to keep underperforming players because there's no other options and have to move a full time #4 to open because the other openers suck and the only good batsman outside of the team also batted middle-order" is damning.

I don't really think T20 has that much impact, at least not in Australia. There aren't really that many batters, especially younger ones, who lack red-ball techniques but are great hitters in Australian domestic cricket. Though maybe it's impacted how players are coached?

Spikey's point re: Hughes and Pucovski makes sense too, they (along with Smith and Khawaja) are the only two in recent history to really gun it at Shield level for a consistent period of time (though Warner would also have done so had his Shield career not been so short) so losing both in freak circumstances is a huge problem.

Another under-rated factor (which could more play into IPL stuff) is that doing the county circuit isn't as common of a finishing school as it was 10-15 years ago.

Overall while I do think the talent pool is weaker than what it was 25 years ago, it's also true that some of the talent now likely would've kicked on a lot harder if they were around in the 2000's.

 

[Starfighter]

For real though, Labuschagne needs a spell. Get the feeling he views himself as undroppable at present. Could sense Hazelwoods frustration in the press conference.

Bring Kurtis Patterson (or Renshaw or even Harris) in for a series. Guys who’ve done it at test level and bat top order. Let McSweeney bat down the order instead of facing Bumrah opening up in spite of the fact McSweeneys not a FC opener. Picking McSweeney as an opener was just clown stuff

Well, all evidence suggests he is undroppable.

I think Australia's preference for stability has historically served us well, compared to England's historic habit of chopping players after a very short time. But there's a time when stability becomes sclerosis, and the fact there's a little "boys' club" vibe doesn't help.

Labuschagne is not just not scoring runs but his technique and assurance look shot to bits. The selectors give the impression that they think the test arena is a place for players to regain form. Yes it may happen, but how many matches will it cost? It's getting to the point where you'd think you might get better results from picking any in-form Shield batsman.

 

[Spikey]

Another under-rated factor (which could more play into IPL stuff) is that doing the county circuit isn't as common of a finishing school as it was 10-15 years ago.

as you know, I always love to say that was also the bloody ECB/the Home Office who changed the rules for visa eligibility that made it impossible for players to go to county cricket unless you were already an international player. I can't remember the date the rules changed, but I became aware of it when Ed Cowan was on a Jarrod Kimber podcast prior to his test debut so I reckon the rules changed in the late 2000s. I think they were having the exact same discussion about young batting talent, and Kimber mentioned county and Cowan pointed to the Home Office.

For those that don't know, the rules were, excluding guys with British/EU passports who could get into the country, you had to have played 1 test in the last two years, or 5 tests over the last 5 years, to be eligible to get a County deal. There was also a set of criteria for white ball cricket, I think 10 interntional ODers/T20s over the last two years or something. So my mind crosses to guys like Nic Maddinson and Kurtis Patterson who are perhaps examples of guys who may have benefited from County cricket, but they didn't become eligible until after their test debuts, and their eligibility was for a limited time as they both played under 5 test matches (ofc, for K-Pat, covid was a bigger issue)

Those eligibility rules have changed because of the Hundred, albeit the "additional" route is if you play 20 T20s over three years in an ICC full member country. My gut feel is more of our young bowlers hit that marker compared to our batters, and if a young batter does hit that mark, the IPL's probably calling. and also, the length of the BBL season being reduced might mean our players struggle to hit that marker now

The criteria was again up for discussion earlier this year: https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/ecb-county-cricket-overseas-player-visa-criteria-1431989

 

[Molehill]

as you know, I always love to say that was also the bloody ECB/the Home Office who changed the rules for visa eligibility that made it impossible for players to go to county cricket unless you were already an international player. I can't remember the date the rules changed, but I became aware of it when Ed Cowan was on a Jarrod Kimber podcast prior to his test debut so I reckon the rules changed in the late 2000s. I think they were having the exact same discussion about young batting talent, and Kimber mentioned county and Cowan pointed to the Home Office.

For those that don't know, the rules were, excluding guys with British/EU passports who could get into the country, you had to have played 1 test in the last two years, or 5 tests over the last 5 years, to be eligible to get a County deal. There was also a set of criteria for white ball cricket, I think 10 ODers/T20s over the last two years or something. So my mind crosses to guys like Nic Maddinson and Kurtis Patterson who are perhaps examples of guys who may have benefited from County cricket, but they didn't become eligible until after their test debuts, and their eligibility was for a limited time as they both played under 5 test matches (ofc, for K-Pat, covid was a bigger issue)

Those eligibility rules have changed because of the Hundred, albeit the "additional" route is if you play 20 T20s over two years in an ICC full member country. My gut feel is more of our young bowlers hit that marker compared to our batters, and if a young batter does hit that mark, the IPL's probably calling. and also, the length of the BBL season being reduced might mean our players struggle to hit that marker now

The criteria was again up for discussion earlier this year: https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/ecb-county-cricket-overseas-player-visa-criteria-1431989

I really don't know the ins and outs of this rule, but Sussex had Daniel Hughes put in a really decent stint last season (would love to see him back in 2025) and he's never represented Australia. How did he qualify?

 

[Starfighter]

<snip>

I've read people talk about pathways and a limited overs batting mindset (even if not a T20 one specifically) interacting in a problematic way.

The jist I get is that a lot of coaching will emphasise things like 'bat speed' over technique. Secondly, coaches etc who are picking players for representative teams will look for the players who can whack the ball rather than players with good technique. This runs into the fact not everyone experiences puberty at the same time or rate, so inevitably some kids in a given age group are more physically mature. The younger age groups of junior cricket all have compulsory retirement after a relatively short innings. Many junior cricket comps now seem to play entirely limited overs cricket (including my local one, a change from when I played only a decade ago). Even when junior comps still have two day matches, at least some representative pathways (e.g. in NSW) are entirely limited overs.

This all adds up to kids who have technique rather than power being ignored, especially if they're later maturing. This isn't great for developing good techniques, and is cutting down on the potential player pool because you're missing late maturing kids. And while I'm not sure how common it was before, I've seen people talk about underage players playing far less grade cricket than before. This means they're missing the benefit of playing against (and with) players with far more experience, and aren't having the benefit of time (rather than overs) limited matches. Fewer players are going through their crucial formative stages learning to bat all day. Not surprisingly, we see that players can't bat time now.

 

[Spikey]

I really don't know the ins and outs of this rule, but Sussex had Daniel Hughes put in a really decent stint last season (would love to see him back in 2025) and he's never represented Australia. How did he qualify?

20 BBL games over three years (my first post mistakenly wrote 20 T20s over 2 years, it's over 3 years)

based on my understanding, he's in trouble once that 2021-22 season stops being counted. (unless he's got British ancestry to get him in, but I dare say he would have had a contract offer years ago if he did)

 

[Molehill]

20 BBL games over three years (my first post mistakenly wrote 20 T20s over 2 years, it's over 3 years)

based on my understanding, he's in trouble once that 2021-22 season stops being counted. (unless he's got British ancestry to get him in, but I dare say he would have had a contract offer years ago if he did)

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I guess he needs 9 BBL games this season to have any chance of another County Contract, which given his form over the last 12 months ought to be doable.

 

[cascade]

I guess he needs 9 BBL games this season to have any chance of another County Contract, which given his form over the last 12 months ought to be doable.

Has a baby due in May though, so might not be available anyway.