Australia ATG vs ROW XI - in Australia

[subshakerz]

And only reason Vettori is playing is to include a New Zealander in the team.

Nobody in their right minds fields just 2 frontline fast bowlers in Australia .....+ Kallis + 2 spinners.

That's a big screw up.

Ideal bowling line is Flintoff, Pollock, Akhtar + Kallis + Murali

Ntini was pretty good around that time.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Nobody in their right minds fields just 2 frontline fast bowlers in Australia .....+ Kallis + 2 spinners.

In that test Australia fielded just 2 frontline fast bowlers + Watson + 2 spinners

 

[centurymaker]

Record vs Australia. Otherwise they would've picked McCullum (in original squad) ahead of Boucher.

Vettori had taken a 6-fer in the Perth test 2001 when NZ should've won. Also took 12 vs Aus at Eden Park in 2000. Both came before his major back problems which led to a remodelling of his action and loss of turn. The test was in Sydney so both teams played two spinners and MacGill must've been close to motm instead of Hayden.

Australian bowlers in their home conditions were next level. MacGill too was very very good and a top Sydney specialist. So Australia could happily field such a combination, 2+1+2, given the quality of each and every bowler.

It didn't make sense for world xi to field just 2 fast bowlers vs australia and that too 2 Englishmen (just because of home Ashes win).

Flintoff is fine but you had to have a South African and Akhtar if available.

 

[centurymaker]

In that test Australia fielded just 2 frontline fast bowlers + Watson + 2 spinners

Australia had McGrath and Lee.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Have been thinking Aubrey Faulkner should be in the ATG team to play in Australia. He struggled there with the ball like all spinners, but averaged 70 with the bat. With Faulkner, Sobers, and Hammond supporting the 3 quicks that's a very good attack with very deep batting (Wasim at 10)

Hobbs
Hutton (c)
Hammond
Tendulkar
Viv
Sobers
Faulkner
Knott (wk)
Hadlee
Wasim
Ambrose

 

[Coronis]

In that test Australia fielded just 2 frontline fast bowlers + Watson + 2 spinners

tbf Watson was averaging 31/60 after 1 test by then, deserved that spot.

 

[Burgey]

And only reason Vettori is playing is to include a New Zealander in the team.

Nobody in their right minds fields just 2 frontline fast bowlers in Australia .....+ Kallis + 2 spinners.

That's a big screw up.

Ideal bowling line is Flintoff, Pollock, Akhtar + Kallis + Murali

It was in Sydney. Teams did/ do that all the time. Flintoff and Harmison were locks because they'd just cheated their way to a win in the 05 Ashes so there was revenge to be had.

Was a pretty average test tbh. I went to a few days and my abiding memory of it was it was ****ing cold. And Murali bowled a really good spell to Katich.

 

[Coronis]

Have been thinking Aubrey Faulkner should be in the ATG team to play in Australia. He struggled there with the ball like all spinners, but averaged 70 with the bat. With Faulkner, Sobers, and Hammond supporting the 3 quicks that's a very good attack with very deep batting (Wasim at 10)

Hobbs
Hutton (c)
Hammond
Tendulkar
Viv
Sobers
Faulkner
Knott (wk)
Hadlee
Wasim
Ambrose

Still don’t get the Hutton > Sutcliffe in Australia. 6 tons in 14 tests for Sutcliffe, 2 tons in 15 for Hutton.

 

[centurymaker]

Gavaskar
Hobbs
Hammond
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Knott
Hadlee
Akram
Holding/Marshall
Ambrose

There's not much in it between Akram and Imran. Although Imran is a better bat, Wasim Akram provides you with the left arm angle with swing and it's so important to have this variety in your attack against the best Australian players!

Holding vs Marshall is a tough one to call, Holding is faster and is almost as good but Marshall is greatest of all time.

Got to have Gavaskar in there who played in a much more 'dangerous and hostile' era for openers and for batsmen in general, compared to Hutton and Sutcliffe

 

[The Sean]

One issue with ICC ratings is that runs or wickets scored/taken in a win are usually worth more than those in a loss or draw. If playing in a team with a very high win % like Waugh/Ponting's Australia players who succeed get huge rating increases.

Not diminishing Hayden at all who was an absolute gun and miles better than any current opener (although I'm hoping Conway reaches his level).

Yeah, that's a fair call.

 

[subshakerz]

Have been thinking Aubrey Faulkner should be in the ATG team to play in Australia. He struggled there with the ball like all spinners, but averaged 70 with the bat. With Faulkner, Sobers, and Hammond supporting the 3 quicks that's a very good attack with very deep batting (Wasim at 10)

Hobbs
Hutton (c)
Hammond
Tendulkar
Viv
Sobers
Faulkner
Knott (wk)
Hadlee
Wasim
Ambrose

I think we established that as long as Australia have Bradman, the ROW side makeup is irrelevant.

 

[Burgey]

Gavaskar
Hobbs
Hammond
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Knott
Hadlee
Akram
Holding/Marshall
Ambrose

Sorry, but as an Aus supporter I'll be thrilled beyond measure if Gavaskar was picked to play against an AT Aus attack out here. I do rate the side you've picked apart from that selection though.

 

[centurymaker]

Sorry, but as an Aus supporter I'll be thrilled beyond measure if Gavaskar was picked to play against an AT Aus attack out here. I do rate the side you've picked apart from that selection though.

I edited and added my reasons.

Gavaskar may only end up averaging 30-35 but he will play out much more balls and fight harder than other alternative openers having played in the bodyline era. Taking the shine off the ball/playing out the initial spell is also important (he is like the opening version of Dravid). So I will stick with him, also given his overall body of work.

 

[Slifer]

Still don’t get the Hutton > Sutcliffe in Australia. 6 tons in 14 tests for Sutcliffe, 2 tons in 15 for Hutton.

I have no idea who Sutcliffe faced down under but Hutton consistently faced Lindwall and Miller with other decent bowlers like Toshack, Bill Johnston, and Ian Johnson. Therefore, he faced excellent attacks.

He did well in 2 of the 3 series he played down there and was poor in his last in '55 but overall Hutton did more than enough vs challenging Oz attacks to be considered as an opener over Herbert.

 

[AnthonyC]

Had a look at Australian home stats, so quoting Home Av only Batting/Bowling
Openers
Warner 58
Hayden 57
Lawry 56
Khawaja 55,
I'd back Hayden/Lawry but Warner probably makes the squad

3-5 Middle Order
Bradman 98 (Locked at 3)
Labuschange 70 still some way to go but adds handy leg spin
Smith 64 (Locked at 4)
Clarke 62
Ponting 57
G Chappell 54/33

Bradman 3, Smith 4, leaving 5 open, on bouncing pitches Ponting's cross bat is very good, but Clarke adds some handy spin at times, I think the World XI aren't going to challenge us with spin except for maybe Sydney, Labu may have them both covered by the end of his career and his part time leggies are generally better than Clarke's spin anywhere but India.

6 All Rounder
Walters 57/31 On Home pitches he was an awesome bat
Miller 40/20
Comes down to if you want a batsman who can add decent part time, or a 5th ATG pace bowler who weakens your batting. Miller's home average is so good that a case for him at 8, if you'r playing 2 spinners could be made. (I'll get how to do that in the bowling section)

7 Gilchrist 45 locked at 7

So bowling just picking bowlers with significant wicket tallies, clearly the differences in bowlers av are much closer then batting averages, and impacted by the batting in their era's

Cummins, Miller 20
Davidson 21
McGrath, Bill Johnston, Lindwall 22
Lillee 23
Hogg, O'Reilly, Hazelwood, Gillespie, Thomson 24
Warne 26 after a whole stack of really awesome bowlers.

Questions often around Miller putting the overs in as a front line, but he did do it at times. So many ways you could slice this...

Cummins, McGrath probably locked in, and most would just pick Warne, and I personally have always valued Davidson for variety and batting at 8

Davidson, Cummins, Warne McGrath

However if you really wanted variety
Miller Johnston O'Reilly McGrath with Johnston starting with pace and swapping to spin to back O'Reilly, and strengthening batting with Walters at 6 and Miller at 8.

So being slightly controversial, because on Australian pitches this bowling attack will generate enough chances that you don't need a gun 5th bowler

Hayden 57
Lawry 56
Bradman 98
Smith 64
Ponting 57 (Since I think W XI will go pace heavy but Labu in the next 5 years probably takes the spot and at SCG Clarke plays)
Walters 57/31
Gilchrist 45
Davidson 25/21
Warne 17/26
Cummins 16/20
McGrath 7/22

 

[Victor Ian]

And only reason Vettori is playing is to include a New Zealander in the team.

Nobody in their right minds fields just 2 frontline fast bowlers in Australia .....+ Kallis + 2 spinners.

That's a big screw up.

Ideal bowling line is Flintoff, Pollock, Akhtar + Kallis + Murali

You mean like Australia only having McGrath and Lee in the same game... with Watson as the all rounder seamer, against Kallis for the world? It was in Sydney!

Harmison had just been a big part of demolishing Australia in England. He was on fire at the time. Deserved his place, presuming they forgot that the game was being played in Australia.

Regardless, I'm sure there were reasons for Shoab missing out, such as genital warts or something, and they probably didn't choose the other top seamers because they were **** in Australia or whatever. The South Africans were perenial losers against Australia at the time. They are lucky they got Kallis into the side

Subshakers wondered where this Sim Hayden was in real life, and I have shown that he was around in real life in the early to mid 2000's with a particularly good versus-the-world example, where he scored a century.

As much as people like to use revisionism, Hayden was ****ing amazing for a good number of years. He is not out of place in Australia's all time team. Particularly in Australia.

 

[Shri]

been giving this some thought. we do not just need bowlers who take wickets but leak runs.

we have seen time and again that to win in australia you need bowlers who can keep the run rate down while chipping away at their batters. otherwise they will often at their best score 80-100 runs every 20 overs.

picking a spinner with the best average is useless regardless of their flair. we need spinners who can contain with wickets being a bonus.

and we need batsmen who can attack in the middle/lower middle order along with dead batters who can wear their bowlers out. some world class batters can do both. composure is an added bonus. with all that in mind, here's my line-up:

for a classic bouncy aussie pitch

Graeme Smith
Sunil Gavaskar
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Ab de Villiers +
Ravi Shastri (C)
Richard Hadlee
Malcolm Marshall
Joel Garner
Curtly Ambrose

for an aussie turner:

Graeme Smith
Virender Sehwag
Jacques Kallis
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Rishabh Pant +
Ravi Shastri (C)
Ravi Jadeja
Malcolm Marshall
Joel Garner
Curtly Ambrose

 

[Nintendo]

On the topic of Hayden in the Sims, he made runs on the flat/turning deck and didn't pass 50 on the 2 green/seamers friendly decks. That matches up with the perception of him being great at home/on Turner's away but struggling a bit more in England right?

Also, would anyone be interesting in seeing the Sims done without Bradman? He made nearly 2* more runs then anyone else in the series and made more 100s then the entire ROW xi across the series. Feel like itde be closer with Ponting at 3 and a Neil Harvey as a backup bat.

 

[subshakerz]

Subshakers wondered where this Sim Hayden was in real life, and I have shown that he was around in real life in the early to mid 2000's with a particularly good versus-the-world example, where he scored a century.

As much as people like to use revisionism, Hayden was ****ing amazing for a good number of years. He is not out of place in Australia's all time team. Particularly in Australia.

Not doubting Hayden's quality except against high quality speedsters and I gave you a few examples. Anything else he would murder. I just don't see him scoring tons against Ambrose et al on greentops.

 

[Victor Ian]

On the topic of Hayden in the Sims, he made runs on the flat/turning deck and didn't pass 50 on the 2 green/seamers friendly decks. That matches up with the perception of him being great at home/on Turner's away but struggling a bit more in England right?

Also, would anyone be interesting in seeing the Sims done without Bradman? He made nearly 2* more runs then anyone else in the series and made more 100s then the entire ROW xi across the series. Feel like itde be closer with Ponting at 3 and a Neil Harvey as a backup bat.

As long as Border is his replacement, why not?