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Aussie team picked - no MacGill

Andre

International Regular
Lions81 said:
I don't think MacGill should have done this without at least a few of his teammates doing the same thing. Now he's just made them look bad and seem like they don't care about what's going on, when I'm sure they do.
A narrow, narrow minded view expressed in this comment. You can't take away someones right to be an individual - it was a courageous stand by MacGill whether his teammates like it or not. It takes more courage to walk alone than to walk feebly in a pack.

Besdies, since when was the remainder of the national squad worried about what Stuart MacGill did anyway? The guy has done something that could cost him his career. For anyone to find fault in saying 'he should have followed the flock' is laughable and insulting to a man who had the moral strength to stand for what he believes in - and what I believe is right.

RE: Anzac - not sure where you've been the past few weeks, but Zimbabwean cricket has fallen further into oblivion. And it was Andy Flower.
 

Linda

International Vice-Captain
age_master said:
Both Macgill and John Howard have praised Macgill for his decision, hopefully this will encourage a few more players to pull out
I should hope MacGill agrees with himself.
On Triple J this morning, they were making light of the fact that Mr Howard only likes people making stands when he agrees with them aswell (eg unlike no-war protesters), or if they can bowl out VVS Laxman.
 

Andre

International Regular
age_master said:
Both Macgill and John Howard have praised Macgill for his decision, hopefully this will encourage a few more players to pull out
McGrath ;)
 

Lions81

U19 Cricketer
Andre said:
A narrow, narrow minded view expressed in this comment. You can't take away someones right to be an individual - it was a courageous stand by MacGill whether his teammates like it or not. It takes more courage to walk alone than to walk feebly in a pack.

Besdies, since when was the remainder of the national squad worried about what Stuart MacGill did anyway? The guy has done something that could cost him his career. For anyone to find fault in saying 'he should have followed the flock' is laughable and insulting to a man who had the moral strength to stand for what he believes in - and what I believe is right.

.
Cricket is a team sport. You live and die in teams. If you don't have simple respect for your teammates then you don't deserve to be called a cricketer. And what do you mean since when was the national squad concerned about MacGill? He's their teammate. I've heard sports often metaphorized to war, and so in this case, he'd be one of their fellow soldiers. Especially a team like Australia which has been very stable over the years, I'm sure they've all become quite close on those long tours. There can't have been more than 20 or so cricketers who've donned that baggy green over the past 2-3 years, so I'm sure the national squad cares more than a little about MacGill.

If fifteen Australian cricketers decided not to go, and one decided he was going to tour, would you be trumpeting his rights as an individual to do that as well? If you can honestly say that it would have still been in your eyes a courageous decision if the decision was the opposite of the way you feel, for example, if in this case the decision had been for MacGill to be the only person to tour, then I will accept that and respect your opinion on the matter. Otherwise, your response to my post is more than a little melodramatic...
 

Slow Love™

International Captain
Lions81 said:
If fifteen Australian cricketers decided not to go, and one decided he was going to tour, would you be trumpeting his rights as an individual to do that as well? If you can honestly say that it would have still been in your eyes a courageous decision if the decision was the opposite of the way you feel, for example, if in this case the decision had been for MacGill to be the only person to tour, then I will accept that and respect your opinion on the matter. Otherwise, your response to my post is more than a little melodramatic...
The default position of Cricket Australia at this stage is to tour. Regardless of who decides NOT to go, a team WILL be sent.

Going with the flow and embarking on that tour is NOT the same as opting out, and making a principled decision (even if we disagree with the principle) not to go. Nobody's demonizing the rest of the players (at least, as far as I can see) for agreeing to go to Zimbabwe, but IMO, MacGill does deserve some credit for making a decision that could likely end his career - not because the ACA won't pick him due to his decision, but because somebody else has been given an opportunity to play, and may make the most of it. If somebody wants to criticize his position because they want to argue the principle, that's one thing, but criticizing him on the basis that he's not doing the same thing as the rest of the players (bearing in mind that this might indeed change, and we may see more players decide not to go now that MacGill's opened the door) seems a little off.

I can come up with some neat little metaphors to illustrate the point that elevating "being part of a team" and conformity to a group over individual principle is a dangerous thing, if you like.
 

Andre

International Regular
Slow Love™ said:
What makes you say that? I heard a rumor about this, but I saw an interview with McGrath on TV tonight, and he didn't seem to be indicating that.
Was just correct age_master mate - he said that MacGill and Howard were supporting MacGill when he meant McGrath and Howard.
 

Loony BoB

International Captain
Lions81 said:
Cricket is a team sport. You live and die in teams. If you don't have simple respect for your teammates then you don't deserve to be called a cricketer. And what do you mean since when was the national squad concerned about MacGill? He's their teammate. I've heard sports often metaphorized to war, and so in this case, he'd be one of their fellow soldiers. Especially a team like Australia which has been very stable over the years, I'm sure they've all become quite close on those long tours. There can't have been more than 20 or so cricketers who've donned that baggy green over the past 2-3 years, so I'm sure the national squad cares more than a little about MacGill.

If fifteen Australian cricketers decided not to go, and one decided he was going to tour, would you be trumpeting his rights as an individual to do that as well? If you can honestly say that it would have still been in your eyes a courageous decision if the decision was the opposite of the way you feel, for example, if in this case the decision had been for MacGill to be the only person to tour, then I will accept that and respect your opinion on the matter. Otherwise, your response to my post is more than a little melodramatic...
As my parents always said: If all of your friends jumped off the harbour bridge, would you do it too?

What you're saying is that he should respect them. I say before you respect anyone, you should respect yourself. And how is he disrespecting them? He's not saying "I think everyone should stop going, all the people that go there are only helping the ZCU and I think that's bloody stupid" or anything. He's saying that he doesn't want to do it. Saying that it's disrespectful is on par with saying that if ten of the first eleven decided to not go that it would be disrespectful to the last man - even though Aussie would just get ten more players. It's also on par with saying that if all of your friends smoke, you should smoke too as a sign of respect. I think he's showing great respect for not only himself but also the Zimbabwean players who will not play, he's showing respect to his family... but it's not about respect at all. But once you come down to it, it's nothing to do with respect. It's about choice and being true to yourself.
 

Slow Love™

International Captain
Andre said:
Was just correct age_master mate - he said that MacGill and Howard were supporting MacGill when he meant McGrath and Howard.
Ah, gotcha - I just read it as a response to the last part of his post. :cool:
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
Lions81 said:
Cricket is a team sport. You live and die in teams. If you don't have simple respect for your teammates then you don't deserve to be called a cricketer. And what do you mean since when was the national squad concerned about MacGill? He's their teammate. I've heard sports often metaphorized to war, and so in this case, he'd be one of their fellow soldiers. Especially a team like Australia which has been very stable over the years, I'm sure they've all become quite close on those long tours. There can't have been more than 20 or so cricketers who've donned that baggy green over the past 2-3 years, so I'm sure the national squad cares more than a little about MacGill.

If fifteen Australian cricketers decided not to go, and one decided he was going to tour, would you be trumpeting his rights as an individual to do that as well? If you can honestly say that it would have still been in your eyes a courageous decision if the decision was the opposite of the way you feel, for example, if in this case the decision had been for MacGill to be the only person to tour, then I will accept that and respect your opinion on the matter. Otherwise, your response to my post is more than a little melodramatic...
Cricket is most definitely a team sport - but that should not get in the way of individual decisions as to whether someone has a personal objection to tour or not. People have opted out of tours for a multitude of reasons in the past, but for me, MacGill deciding that he cannot tour Zimbabwe on moral grounds is just as valid as Jonathan Edwards saying years ago that he could not compete on a Sunday because of his own religious beliefs and should be given equal respect.

The fact that people equate a sporting contest with a war (or being akin to war) is, of course, nonsense. Just because people do something doesn't make it right. Like Shankly saying that 'Football is not a matter of life and death. It is much more important than that' - only an idiot believes that he meant it. I don't think that MacGill has to stand in line with his team-mates on this issue at all - and no, they don't have to support him either - just respect his decision.

I have always trumpeted the rights of freedom of speech, freedom of expression and the like (Look around this site - you will see me in off-topic threads vehemently defending the rights of 'foreigners' to burn the Union flag, whether I support their cause or not, I support their RIGHT to do it - in the face of extreme opposition). I also support the right of peaceful counter-protest.

If 15 Aussies decided not to tour, I would applaud their decision, but equally I would uphold the decision of the ones who decided that they could travel. What I would LIKE to see is the ICC taking steps to suspend Zimbabwe, but that won't happen. Next best is for the Australian government, then the British government through the EC to introduce/extend sanctions to include sporting links, but that's not going to happen either. Consequently, the English tour - and the Australian one - will take place.

I have said many times that I see no difference between what's happening now in Zimbabwe and what happened in 1970 in South Africa - and my opinion is that if world cricket judges them to be different just because the colours have been reversed (which appears to be the case), that is hypocritical.

I also respect your right to try to tear my arguments to shreds - if you argue from a genuine contrary position and not either
a) gainsay
or
b) try this 'Devil's Advocate' bullcrap.
 
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marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Lions81 said:
Cricket is a team sport. You live and die in teams. If you don't have simple respect for your teammates then you don't deserve to be called a cricketer.

By that logic, A Flower and Olonga don't deserve to be.
 

Lions81

U19 Cricketer
luckyeddie said:
Cricket is most definitely a team sport - but that should not get in the way of individual decisions as to whether someone has a personal objection to tour or not. People have opted out of tours for a multitude of reasons in the past, but for me, MacGill deciding that he cannot tour Zimbabwe on moral grounds is just as valid as Jonathan Edwards saying years ago that he could not compete on a Sunday because of his own religious beliefs and should be given equal respect.

The fact that people equate a sporting contest with a war (or being akin to war) is, of course, nonsense. Just because people do something doesn't make it right. Like Shankly saying that 'Football is not a matter of life and death. It is much more important than that' - only an idiot believes that he meant it. I don't think that MacGill has to stand in line with his team-mates on this issue at all - and no, they don't have to support him either - just respect his decision.

I have always trumpeted the rights of freedom of speech, freedom of expression and the like (Look around this site - you will see me in off-topic threads vehemently defending the rights of 'foreigners' to burn the Union flag, whether I support their cause or not, I support their RIGHT to do it - in the face of extreme opposition). I also support the right of peaceful counter-protest.

If 15 Aussies decided not to tour, I would applaud their decision, but equally I would uphold the decision of the ones who decided that they could travel. What I would LIKE to see is the ICC taking steps to suspend Zimbabwe, but that won't happen. Next best is for the Australian government, then the British government through the EC to introduce/extend sanctions to include sporting links, but that's not going to happen either. Consequently, the English tour - and the Australian one - will take place.

I have said many times that I see no difference between what's happening now in Zimbabwe and what happened in 1970 in South Africa - and my opinion is that if world cricket judges them to be different just because the colours have been reversed (which appears to be the case), that is hypocritical.

I also respect your right to try to tear my arguments to shreds - if you argue from a genuine contrary position and not either
a) gainsay
or
b) try this 'Devil's Advocate' bullcrap.
My opinion is informed by personal experience. I'm a member of a basketball team, and we're a small, tight-knit group, 16 of us altogether. If a similar situation like this occurred, and one of those 16 said what MacGill said, that would be it as far as being considered a teammate or a friend for us. He'd be considered henceforth a traitor, and maybe it's just the American anti-federalist attitude at work, but we practice together, sweat together and bleed together. I'm concerned about my teammates' well-being and they're concerned about mine, but something like this would be nothing short of a betrayal. Either we all go or we all don't go. Team first.

And about MacGill's conscience? Well, I saw an interesting news clip the other day about an aboriginal woman putting a curse on the Australian PM. I can't imagine the Aboriginals are being treated too well. Is MacGill going to pull out of the home series against Sri Lanka? Now before you say "Here he goes, trying to get whitey again", which is bullshit by the way, let me add that every country has problems. India, England, New Zealand, they all have problems where some minority group is being brutally discriminated against. They're all wrong. The international world looks the other way because India's a powerful country, but really my people are as bad as the Zimbabweans. They way we treat untouchables is horrible, but nobody says a thing. It's all about the power you got and the cash that's behind it. That's what's got to be understood. It's never about conscience.

Except when it's MacGill.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
Lions81 said:
I don't think MacGill should have done this without at least a few of his teammates doing the same thing. Now he's just made them look bad and seem like they don't care about what's going on, when I'm sure they do.
Apparently there are 6 others considering not touring.
 

Lions81

U19 Cricketer
Tom Halsey said:
Apparently there are 6 others considering not touring.
Yes, so surely he could've called his teammates up first to gauge their willingness not to tour and then done it en masse, instead of trying to be the lone ranger.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Sorry, but comparing an amateur Basketball Team with a Professional Cricket squad that is selected by outsiders doesn't work for me.
 

Lions81

U19 Cricketer
marc71178 said:
Sorry, but comparing an amateur Basketball Team with a Professional Cricket squad that is selected by outsiders doesn't work for me.
Amateur?! Well I never! :D

And the point is the team spirit which runs across every team game, and is not native just to cricket.
 

age_master

Hall of Fame Member
i dont think team spirit is going to be too much of a problem in an Aussie tour of Zim any time in the near future
 

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