Athers I stand and applaud you

[four_or_six]

I think injuries have played their part, especially since 2005. But you can't really get a great player who's very injury prone. (I'm sure someone's going to prove me wrong...)Having a good fitness record is part of being a great player.

 

[tooextracool]

The IPL kinda showed up what I am talking about regarding Flintoff tbh. Played something like 150 ODIs, still hasnt developed a slower ball, doesnt bowl any cutters and has no variety to his bowling with the exception of his stock ball back of a length. When the pitches had no bite in them, he got tonked around all over the park.

He is a classic example regarding why England are backward in all forms of the game. Someone mentioned that a lot of England players dont play 50 odd test matches or whatever they have under their belt, they play the same test 50 times. They are right about it. This is where I give props to Stuart Broad, because almost every other game he goes out there and tries something different and even if he gets tonked, you know that he's learning from it.

 

[Pratters]

I repeat, can some one please link me to the Vaughan piece? It's in The Daily Telegraph some where but I just can't find it.

 

[tooextracool]

I repeat, can some one please link me to the Vaughan piece?

Are you talking about this one?

Michael Vaughan: Freddie Flintoff entertains fans and inspires players in equal measure - Telegraph

 

[Pratters]

Yeah thanks heaps.

 

[Uppercut]

I think injuries have played their part, especially since 2005. But you can't really get a great player who's very injury prone. (I'm sure someone's going to prove me wrong...)Having a good fitness record is part of being a great player.

The injuries are a direct result of his action, incidentally, and the fact that he has to put so much effort into every delivery to get the pace he wants. Dennis Lillee, an undisputed great of the game, took time out, reinvented his action completely into something less dangerous for his body, and came back as a great bowler all the same. Freddie could have, but instead he just kept doing the same things, and kept breaking down as a result.

Freddie was an awesome player, but you can't entirely treat his injuries as a random slice of bad luck that he was unfortunate to be afflicted with.

 

[four_or_six]

The injuries are a direct result of his action, incidentally, and the fact that he has to put so much effort into every delivery to get the pace he wants. Dennis Lillee, an undisputed great of the game, took time out, reinvented his action completely into something less dangerous for his body, and came back as a great bowler all the same. Freddie could have, but instead he just kept doing the same things, and kept breaking down as a result.

Freddie was an awesome player, but you can't entirely treat his injuries as a random slice of bad luck that he was unfortunate to be afflicted with.

Yes, agreed. I more meant to point out that I think his injuries affected his career returns, and not why he was injured.

 

[BoyBrumby]

My personal opinion of Fred is that he isn't, in the cold light of day, a great player per se but rather a player who was capable of greatness. That he doesn't make the pantheon is partly due to injuries but also partly due to streaks of laziness & stubborness and some questionable refuelling habits.

One incident I thought illustrative was the advice Donald offered him during his brief tenure as England's bowling coach. AD gave some pointers regarding the position of Flintoff's foot during his delivery stride (the left one where even his surgeon has probably lost count of the number of operations its ankle has required), Fred blew it off saying something like "I'm nearly 30; too old to change now." Barely two years later (not the most productive 24 months of his career either, it must be noted) he's finished as a test player.

The popular perception of Fred is as a loveable and largely guileless lug, but incidents like that betray the fact there's more of an ego at play than this perception suggests.

 

[Pratters]

My personal opinion of Fred is that he isn't, in the cold light of day, a great player per se but rather a player who was capable of greatness. That he doesn't make the pantheon is partly due to injuries but also partly due to streaks of laziness & stubborness and some questionable refuelling habits.

One incident I thought illustrative was the advice Donald offered him during his brief tenure as England's bowling coach. AD gave some pointers regarding the position of Flintoff's foot during his delivery stride (the left one where even his surgeon has probably lost count of the number of operations its ankle has required), Fred blew it off saying something like "I'm nearly 30; too old to change now." Barely two years later (not the most productive 24 months of his career either, it must be noted) he's finished as a test player.

The popular perception of Fred is as a loveable and largely guileless lug, but incidents like that betray the fact there's more of an ego at play than this perception suggests.

I was thinking about the Donald example. Well said. I'll quote you in my blog.

 

[marc71178]

The injuries are a direct result of his action, incidentally, and the fact that he has to put so much effort into every delivery to get the pace he wants. Dennis Lillee, an undisputed great of the game, took time out, reinvented his action completely into something less dangerous for his body, and came back as a great bowler all the same. Freddie could have, but instead he just kept doing the same things, and kept breaking down as a result.

But how much of that was a result of the England team's need for him to keep playing?

 

[Prince EWS]

Atherton will enjoy this thread.

 

[Pup Clarke]

He didn't become a great because he just didn't put in the f'ing effort. Sorry but his attitude to the game was unprofessional. He played with all his heart on the pitch but he never ever worked truly hard enough on his game in the nets and outside of the actual match and thats the exact point.

Sorry, are you Andy Flower?

 

[sledger]

I think the word "great" is very subjective to be honest. I wouldn't ever suggest that Freddie should be categorised as an alltime great, so to speak. But when asked if I thought he was a great cricketer, I would not hesitate to say yes.

 

[Pigeon]

One thing the English has produced consistently which is the top of it's class in cricket : commentators. (Not just TV or radio, but commentary on the game). Athers is certainly a wonderful addition to that list.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I think the word "great" is very subjective to be honest. I wouldn't ever suggest that Freddie should be categorised as an alltime great, so to speak. But when asked if I thought he was a great cricketer, I would not hesitate to say yes.

I think it's partly the nature of the coverage we get from all forms of media now. Superlatives are devalued because they're tossed around like confetti.

Fred produced some great performances and he's a player who's traduced by his overall career figures, but a great cricketer? Hmm.

 

[Athlai]

Am waiting for the off topic thread of the same name.

 

[Pigeon]

edited

 

[Uppercut]

But how much of that was a result of the England team's need for him to keep playing?

Well, no one knows for sure. But as Brumby pointed out, those within the England camp- Allan Donald- were advising him to change his action to prevent damage and he didn't bother. That suggests to me that it's moreso Freddie's fault than the English management.

 

[zaremba]

This article will probably be pretty unpopular among England fans, it's objective and cold at a time in the series when people want romanticism. It's the ballsiest cricket article I've ever read by an English cricket writer, and I agree with every word of it.

I'm sure you're disappointed by the distinct lack of evidence that this article is as "unpopular among England fans" as you'd hoped, oitoitoi.

As for all the "ballsiest cricket article" stuff, what a load of nonsense. Writing that Freddie is not a "Great" player is hardly earth-shattering stuff and I fail to see how it's remotely "ballsy" to do it. Anyhow, glad you enjoyed the piece - you're right, Athers is a really good writer.

 

[tooextracool]

[/B]

Sorry, are you Andy Flower?

Do I really need to be Andy Flower to be able to know that? You can tell a lot reading Duncan's autobiography and you can make a fair few judgments based upon how much he hasn't improved over the past few years. There are few fast bowlers in the world who have played in something like 300 international innings(ODIs and tests) and haven't bothered to develop a slower ball in this day and age tbh.