Andy Roberts vs Courtney Walsh

[BazBall21]

You have got to be kidding me. Bowlers now rated down because batsmen didn't have the same protective gear, really? So Viv Richards who used to hook Lillee and Thomson for fun wearing only a WI cap should be made God of any batting poll

Not necessarily rated down. He might have benefitted a bit. I think playing the short ball back then was more nuanced because self protection was more of a factor, and Viv Richards definitely gets extra acclaim from the wider cricketing community for his imperiousness v pace while sporting a cap.

Walsh did have his own advantages. He came into an elite WI setup where there was virtually always pressure built from the other end and WI wickets in the 90s were very uneven which are reflected in the disparity between his 1st/2nd innings and 3rd/4th innings stats.

 

[Coronis]

Not necessarily rated down. He might have benefitted a bit. I think playing the short ball back then was more nuanced because self protection was more of a factor, and Viv Richards definitely gets extra acclaim from the wider cricketing community for his imperiousness v pace while sporting a cap.

Walsh did have his own advantages. He came into an elite WI setup where there was virtually always pressure built from the other end and WI wickets in the 90s were very uneven which are reflected in the disparity between his 1st/2nd innings and 3rd/4th innings stats.

99% of bowlers have better stats in the last two innings than the first two. Pitches generally don’t get better over time..

 

[Qlder]

How do you define better bowler?

Well imagine this, Roberts, Holding, Garner, Croft in same team, guess who opened the bowing more often than not. Put Walsh in that team, do you think he's got the new ball ahead of Roberts and Holding, the better bowlers?

 

[BazBall21]

99% of bowlers have better stats in the last two innings than the first two. Pitches generally don’t get better over time..

Yeah that's true. Walsh's disparity is above average which reflects the uneven pitches at home.

Roberts' home record is pretty underwhelming. Think the WI pitches might have been a tad more solid in the 70s but 18 tests is very sparse. Most of Roberts' scope comes elsewhere.

 

[Coronis]

Well imagine this, Roberts, Holding, Garner, Croft in same team, guess who opened the bowing more often than not. Put Walsh in that team, do you think he's got the new ball ahead of Roberts and Holding, the better bowlers?

Maybe if his career started at the same time as Roberts? Its impossible to know, really. Usually a player gets entrenched as an opening bowler.

Fun fact though, when those 4 did bowl together, Roberts opened the bowling every time and was absolutely ****.

Opening the bowling doesn’t necessarily make you the best bowler in the side anyway. See: Cummins

 

[Johan]

Cummins? Pat Cummins?

 

[Qlder]

Fun fact though, when those 4 did bowl together, Roberts opened the bowling every time and was absolutely ****.

Opening the bowling doesn’t necessarily make you the best bowler in the side anyway. See: Cummins

Again, stat people re-writing history to say Roberts was crap as that was at the end of his career but Lloyd still had him as leader of the attack. And Cummins is not the best bowler in the side, especially since he became captain. Do those stats. My opinion is from watching

 

[Coronis]

Cummins? Pat Cummins?

No, Anderson Cummins.

 

[Coronis]

Again, stat people re-writing history to say Roberts was crap. And Cummins is not the best bowler in the side, especially since he became captain. Do those stats. My opinion is from watching

I never said he was crap overall. He was crap when that lineup was bowling for sure though.

Holding 51 @ 20.56
Garner 47 @ 19.48
Croft 46 @ 25.82
Roberts 28 @ 35.53

 

[DrWolverine]

Well imagine this, Roberts, Holding, Garner, Croft in same team, guess who opened the bowing more often than not. Put Walsh in that team, do you think he's got the new ball ahead of Roberts and Holding, the better bowlers?

Courtney Walsh is arguably the greatest over achiever in test cricket.

Despite starting at the age of 22, he was not considered good enough. He was the 4th pacer behind Marshall, Holding and Garner. He barely played 5 Tests in first 2 years. Even after the retirement of the latter two, he was considered not as good as Patterson. Curtly Ambrose easily took over the mantle from Macko as the leader of the bowling lineup. Ian Bishop was considered as better than Walsh before injury. Walsh outlasted all the bowlers and emerging as the highest wicket taker for WestIndies is a great story.

 

[DrWolverine]

Kerry Packer Series

Dennis Lillee : 67 wickets @ 26
Andy Roberts : 50 wickets @ 24
Joel Garner : 35 wickets @ 24
Michael Holding : 35 wickets @ 23
Imran Khan : 25 wickets @ 20

 

[capt_Luffy]

Courtney Walsh is arguably the greatest over achiever in test cricket.

Despite starting at the age of 22, he was not considered good enough. He was the 4th pacer behind Marshall, Holding and Garner. He barely played 5 Tests in first 2 years. Even after the retirement of the latter two, he was considered not as good as Patterson. Curtly Ambrose easily took over the mantle from Macko as the leader of the bowling lineup. Ian Bishop was considered as better than Walsh before injury. Walsh outlasted all the bowlers and emerging as the highest wicket taker for WestIndies is a great story.

I disagree. Walsh came good late, but once he did; he did so monumentally. Greatest overachiever in Tests is someone for me wildly better Test numbers than FC, over a decent length of time. Tony Greig is my pick there, followed by Barrington

 

[Qlder]

Courtney Walsh is arguably the greatest over achiever in test cricket.

Despite starting at the age of 22, he was not considered good enough. He was the 4th pacer behind Marshall, Holding and Garner. He barely played 5 Tests in first 2 years. Even after the retirement of the latter two, he was considered not as good as Patterson. Curtly Ambrose easily took over the mantle from Macko as the leader of the bowling lineup. Ian Bishop was considered as better than Walsh before injury. Walsh outlasted all the bowlers and emerging as the highest wicket taker for WestIndies is a great story.

Still doesn't make him a better bowler than Roberts. From memory Marshall was around since 1978 but couldn't establish himself until 1984 after retirements, so Marshall, arguably the greatest pace bowler ever, waiting 6 years sounds much sadder story than Walsh.

Please change votes to public, I want to see who's opinions should be ignored in future

 

[DrWolverine]

Sorry but anyone that actually saw Andy Roberts bowl would never put Courtney Walsh ahead of him. This vote looks purely stats based on longevity (Anderson fans will be happy)

The legacy of some cricketers have fallen over the years (or decades). When I started to watch cricket, I use to read and stories about how Dennis Lillee was the best fast bowler and Andy Roberts was just as good but more dangerous on his day. We grew up reading stories about his infamous bouncer and that Gundappa Vishwanath and the legendary Sunil Gavaskar rated him as the best bowler.

 

[BazBall21]

I disagree. Walsh came good late, but once he did; he did so monumentally. Greatest overachiever in Tests is someone for me wildly better Test numbers than FC, over a decent length of time. Tony Greig is my pick there, followed by Barrington

Greig did play tests exclusively in his prime and Barrington doing better in tests than FC isn't illogical considering the 60s was a batting era and pitches outside England were generally a lot easier (where he ran riot). Ted Dexter was a contemporary of Barrington's and he also had much better Test than FC numbers.

Walsh is someone who exceeded expectations for sure. Barrington technically did too, but some of that was likely down to media subjectivity. I think Greig's test career is simply a case of good timing and he had the character and resourcefulness to get the most out of his talent on the big stage.

 

[DrWolverine]

Still doesn't make him a better bowler than Roberts. From memory Marshall was around since 1978 but couldn't establish himself until 1984 after retirements, so Marshall, arguably the greatest pace bowler ever, waiting 6 years sounds much sadder story than Walsh.

Please change votes to public, I want to see who's opinions should be ignored in future

I don’t know how to make votes public. Please tell me how and I will do it

 

[BazBall21]

The legacy of some cricketers have fallen over the years (or decades). When I started to watch cricket, I use to read and stories about how Dennis Lillee was the best fast bowler and Andy Roberts was just as good but more dangerous on his day. We grew up reading stories about his infamous bouncer and that Gundappa Vishwanath and the legendary Sunil Gavaskar rated him as the best bowler.

Roberts, Snow and Hall all had relatively high peer ratings. I'd probably rank them like that.

 

[Qlder]

The legacy of some cricketers have fallen over the years (or decades). When I started to watch cricket, I use to read and stories about how Dennis Lillee was the best fast bowler and Andy Roberts was just as good but more dangerous on his day. We grew up reading stories about his infamous bouncer and that Gundappa Vishwanath and the legendary Sunil Gavaskar rated him as the best bowler.

And people like me actually watched it happen and all of the stories were true, hence my fighting so hard for Andy Roberts here

 

[BazBall21]

And people like me actually watched it happen and all of it was true

Did you watch John Snow

 

[DrWolverine]

I disagree. Walsh came good late, but once he did; he did so monumentally. Greatest overachiever in Tests is someone for me wildly better Test numbers than FC, over a decent length of time. Tony Greig is my pick there, followed by Barrington

I have always been a little surprised why people barely mention him when they speak about all time great batsmen. I know it’s sacrilegious to say this on this sub but he played roughly in the same era as Gary Sobers and has a better and more rounded record than him.

Ken Barrington’s record is extraordinary and in pretty much every batting record or statistic, his name is at the very top.

Ken Barrington’s Average
In Aus : 69
In Eng : 50
In Ind : 96
In NZ : 73
In Pak : 72
In SA : 100
In WI : 44

vs Aus : 43
vs Ind : 75
vs WI : 33
vs NZ : 99
vs Pak : 79
vs SA : 50

Overall Average : 58
Home : Average of 50
Away : Average of 69