Amir Interview

[Furball]

Having just seen the interview for the first time, I'm torn between my previous "ban everyone involved for life" stance, and feeling some sort of sympathy for Amir.

 

[zaremba]

I think a lot of people are using the fact that he's a talented guy as some sort of mitigation for the quality of his act(s), and this is fundamentally wrong.

I agree, his talent doesn't mitigate the quality of his acts (if anything it makes what he did all the more unnecessary and wanton). But there is an argument for saying that when considering what punishment a given individual should get you should take into account what that punishment would really mean for him. For instance a life ban on an 18 year old Wasim Akram would in some respects be a greater punishment than a life ban on an 18 year old Liaqat Ali. He would be losing a lot more than dear old Liaqat.

Now obviously, a judge or disciplinary panel faced with two players whose only distinguishing feature is that one is much more talented than the other would not be likely to dare to use that as a reason to give different penalties to them. But in a case like Amir's where there was no direct comparator (Butt and Asif both had less mitigation in all sorts of respects) you might well find talent / potential having an unspoken influence on the sentence.

 

[GIMH]

Having just seen the interview for the first time, I'm torn between my previous "ban everyone involved for life" stance, and feeling some sort of sympathy for Amir.

I was pretty much the same

 

[morgieb]

What I don't get though is why he knew it was wrong, but still did it anyway? I know he's only 18, but surely the pressure can't be that hard to do something illegal?

 

[Agent Nationaux]

He was a pretty ****y ****, so the excitement and arrogance at getting away with something like that must have been a factor.

 

[sledger]

I agree, his talent doesn't mitigate the quality of his acts (if anything it makes what he did all the more unnecessary and wanton). But there is an argument for saying that when considering what punishment a given individual should get you should take into account what that punishment would really mean for him. For instance a life ban on an 18 year old Wasim Akram would in some respects be a greater punishment than a life ban on an 18 year old Liaqat Ali. He would be losing a lot more than dear old Liaqat.

Now obviously, a judge or disciplinary panel faced with two players whose only distinguishing feature is that one is much more talented than the other would not be likely to dare to use that as a reason to give different penalties to them. But in a case like Amir's where there was no direct comparator (Butt and Asif both had less mitigation in all sorts of respects) you might well find talent / potential having an unspoken influence on the sentence.

The problem for me though, is that there is a lot more going on here than just Amir and what a punishment would mean for him. To focus too narrowly on Amir rather than the effect on cricket in general is to miss the big picture (I'm not saying this is what you are doing btw). People can talk about how Amir might deserve a second chance, but does cricket not deserve a chance to be rid of people who damage the sport's integrity and worldwide image? In the event that someone is found guilty of some sort of corruption related offence, the need to protect the sport itself ranks far higher on my list of priorities than the need (if you can call it that) to give a proven fixer a second chance to prove themselves (whether or not they deserve the chance or not is another matter entirely).

 

[BoyBrumby]

I'm still surprised anyone feels more sympathy for Amir after the interview. Even if one accepts his story as the truth (Atherton's editorialising about Amir insisting he'd received no money despite giving his account details to the mysterious "Ali" suggests he didn't believe him) his excuse was essentially that he was committing fraud to save his own arse.

Not the noblest of reasons IMHO.

 

[sledger]

Yes, must say I am somewhat surprised that the interview has curried any sympathy as well to be honest. Had he come across as genuinely remorseful and accepted the wrongness of his actions then I daresay it would have struck a chord with me, but sadly all I heard were excuses and the apportioning of blame to other people. Seems like the interview is just a further attempt to save his own bacon rather than actually come clean about what happened.

 

[smash84]

Yes, must say I am somewhat surprised that the interview has curried any sympathy as well to be honest. .

This

 

[zaremba]

The problem for me though, is that there is a lot more going on here than just Amir and what a punishment would mean for him. To focus too narrowly on Amir rather than the effect on cricket in general is to miss the big picture (I'm not saying this is what you are doing btw). People can talk about how Amir might deserve a second chance, but does cricket not deserve a chance to be rid of people who damage the sport's integrity and worldwide image? In the event that someone is found guilty of some sort of corruption related offence, the need to protect the sport itself ranks far higher on my list of priorities than the need (if you can call it that) to give a proven fixer a second chance to prove themselves (whether or not they deserve the chance or not is another matter entirely).

All excellent points tbh.

But I'm a rancidly bleeding heart liberal and believe that almost everyone deserves a second chance.

 

[Furball]

I'm still surprised anyone feels more sympathy for Amir after the interview. Even if one accepts his story as the truth (Atherton's editorialising about Amir insisting he'd received no money despite giving his account details to the mysterious "Ali" suggests he didn't believe him) his excuse was essentially that he was committing fraud to save his own arse.

Not the noblest of reasons IMHO.

I have a wee bit more sympathy for him because as I understand it, the subcontinental culture is completely different when it comes to the senior players in the team, and whilst this is only Amir's version of events, from what Amir has said, he was very badly misled and let down by his captain.

An 18 year old being subject to that pressure needed a captain that he could confide in and trust to guide him along the right path - not someone like Salman Butt who encouraged Amir's actions. Of course Amir has to bear responsibility for his own actions, but it's hard not to feel a degree of sympathy considering who he was sharing a dressing room with.

I'm still quite cynical about him - after all, this is his version of events, it suits Amir to play the "poor little me was misled by big bad boys in the team" card, and it'll be interesting to see to what degree Amir's version of events is corroborated by Salman Butt and Mohammad Asif.

 

[Furball]

All excellent points tbh.

But I'm a rancidly bleeding heart liberal and believe that almost everyone deserves a second chance.

It's hard not to sympathise with the POV that Amir deserves a second chance, but at the same time I think the interests of cricket are far more important than what might be right or fair for Amir.

 

[fredfertang]

I'm a rancidly bleeding heart liberal as well, obviously, but I'd also make the point that apart from showing that those who run the game have no compassion, and perhaps more importantly any grip on the reality of the pressures young players are exposed to, it would also send out the signal to me if all offenders got a life ban as a knee jerk reaction, that the sport has no confidence in its own ability to exercise any control/discipline

 

[Fusion]

I'm a rancidly bleeding heart liberal as well, obviously, but I'd also make the point that apart from showing that those who run the game have no compassion, and perhaps more importantly any grip on the reality of the pressures young players are exposed to, it would also send out the signal to me if all offenders got a life ban as a knee jerk reaction, that the sport has no confidence in its own ability to exercise any control/discipline

Superb point.

 

[Jacknife]

I'm still surprised anyone feels more sympathy for Amir after the interview. Even if one accepts his story as the truth (Atherton's editorialising about Amir insisting he'd received no money despite giving his account details to the mysterious "Ali" suggests he didn't believe him) his excuse was essentially that he was committing fraud to save his own arse.

Not the noblest of reasons IMHO.

Completely agree, the fact he still didn't man up and take full responsibility was a big thing for me, far too full of excuses as well as buck passing.

 

[sledger]

I think it's just a desperately sad case to be honest. For a talent such as Amir to have participated in such deceitful activities is a terrible shame, whatever his reasons may be. My overall standing on the matter, is that even if he is deserving of a second chance (which I'm far from convinced is the case at the moment), I don't believe the importance of giving him such an opportunity outweighs the need of cricket in general to cleanse itself of those who have brought the game into disrepute in such a way. Perhaps more of an effort needs to be made by the relevant authorities to identify, understand and try and neutralise the pressures and corrupting influences young cricketers are exposed to, but there really is only so far you can attempt to educate people about the rights and wrongs of the world, if people are found to engage in such practices I really don't see what else you can do rather than introduce penal sanctions. And strong ones at that.

 

[Scaly piscine]

As far as I'm concerned Amir has had plenty of second chances. The guy is still a lying, conniving, cheating turd. He could have pleaded guilty. He could have co-operated with the investigation. He could have told the truth at some ****ing point for novelty value. He could have accepted responsibility. He hasn't done any of that. He got caught cheating the game and it was clear this wasn't an isolated incident. He has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to merit leniency or a path back into the game he ****ed over. Get rid.

 

[Furball]

I think it's just a desperately sad case to be honest. For a talent such as Amir to have participated in such deceitful activities is a terrible shame, whatever his reasons may be. My overall standing on the matter, is that even if he is deserving of a second chance (which I'm far from convinced is the case at the moment), I don't believe the importance of giving him such an opportunity outweighs the need of cricket in general to cleanse itself of those who have brought the game into disrepute in such a way. Perhaps more of an effort needs to be made by the relevant authorities to identify, understand and try and neutralise the pressures and corrupting influences young cricketers are exposed to, but there really is only so far you can attempt to educate people about the rights and wrongs of the world, if people are found to engage in such practices I really don't see what else you can do rather than introduce penal sanctions. And strong ones at that.

There's only so much the cricketing authorities can do whilst betting remains illegal on the subcontinent.

 

[zaremba]

As far as I'm concerned Amir has had plenty of second chances. The guy is still a lying, conniving, cheating turd. He could have pleaded guilty. He could have co-operated with the investigation. He could have told the truth at some ****ing point for novelty value. He could have accepted responsibility. He hasn't done any of that. He got caught cheating the game and it was clear this wasn't an isolated incident. He has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to merit leniency or a path back into the game he ****ed over. Get rid.

Er... he did

 

[sledger]

There's only so much the cricketing authorities can do whilst betting remains illegal on the subcontinent.

How do you mean?