Ambrose vs Warne: Greater Test Bowler?

[kyear2]

Nah Imran in WI was as good. Those WI teams were ATG, and he took 48 wickets in 8 matches vs them. Godly. And a high concentration of Imran’s dismissals were bowled. Ambrose in Aus was truly magnificent, but faced really horrid batting lineups in Eng, and never played in SA. I’d take Imran in Pak and Wi over Ambrose in Eng very very easily, and on par with Ambrose in Aus

I'll revisit this entire argument in a bit, but the WI was a top 2 team of all time because of our bowling.... We had Viv, who was in decline from the '84?, Lloyd retired then as well and Greenidge's decline was worse than Viv's. Yes, it was a great team and a very good batting lineup, but it wasn't Australia's. And Australia's bowling, even with Warne and McGrath wasn't as good as that quartet either.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Viv was bloody good in the Pak series(1987)

 

[subshakerz]

I'll revisit this entire argument in a bit, but the WI was a top 2 team of all time because of our bowling.... We had Viv, who was in decline from the '84?, Lloyd retired then as well and Greenidge's decline was worse than Viv's. Yes, it was a great team and a very good batting lineup, but it wasn't Australia's. And Australia's bowling, even with Warne and McGrath wasn't as good as that quartet either.

Viv's decline was 88 onwards, actually that series against Imran was his last great series. Haynes, Greenidge and Richardson were still there too. Still the best lineup in the world at the time by a distance.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I'll revisit this entire argument in a bit, but the WI was a top 2 team of all time because of our bowling.... We had Viv, who was in decline from the '84?, Lloyd retired then as well and Greenidge's decline was worse than Viv's. Yes, it was a great team and a very good batting lineup, but it wasn't Australia's. And Australia's bowling, even with Warne and McGrath wasn't as good as that quartet either.

and in the 82 series vs Kapil, was the time of Viv's temporary decline in tests

 

[Coronis]

and in the 82 series vs Kapil, was the time of Viv's temporary decline in tests

Like, I’m not a big Viv fan by any means, but you’ve literally made about 20 excuses for anything Imran did in this thread.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Like, I’m not a big Viv fan by any means, but you’ve literally made about 20 excuses for anything Imran did in this thread.

Context dude. not excuses. And what applies to Imran about the Wi batting, I'm applying to Kapil too

 

[OverratedSanity]

Mate get out of your ass. Ambrose averages under 25 against everyone but Pakistan and under 25 everywhere but Pakistan. He averages 21 at home and 20 away but somehow has a less well rounded record than Steyn (21/24) and Imran (19/25).

I have disproved this with facts and logic repeatedly. Steyn and Imran played more high scoring away series in flat conditions than most ATG bowlers. They stood out in those conditions just as much if not more than ambrose did.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Wasim Akram averaged 29 in Eng against that same horrid team. Waqar 28 in Eng. walsh was horrible till the 2000 series in Eng. Then they must me given extra de merit points for not performing well enough against that horrid Eng.

What a pointless post. Who argued wasim or Waqar were better?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Ambrose hater starter pack of unacknowledged holes in his record :

- Took one third of his test wickets against a poor England team
- Barely had to play any games against SA the second best team of most of the 90s.
- Minimal success against Asian teams in the subcontinent (a very relevant point considering Warne is overly criticized for his poor India record)
- Mediocre wpm and strike rate for large stretches of the second half of his career

 

[Jumno]

Close one, however I'd go for Warne.

 

[honestbharani]

Ambrose is the best seamer I have seen.

 

[capt_Luffy]

What a pointless post. Who argued wasim or Waqar were better?

Actually, I think Wasim was better than Imran....

 

[subshakerz]

I have disproved this with facts and logic repeatedly. Steyn and Imran played more high scoring away series in flat conditions than most ATG bowlers. They stood out in those conditions just as much if not more than ambrose did.

This. How many series or even tests has Ambrose performed on flat wickets?

Actually, I think Wasim was better than Imran....

Imran is a bit better.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Actually, I think Wasim was better than Imran....

Disgusting opinion

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Was Ambrose even an ATG? It seems like he was just another Philander

 

[capt_Luffy]

Disgusting opinion

That's not how spell RIGHT opinion..... But well, whatever

 

[shortpitched713]

Was Ambrose even an ATG? It seems like he was just another Philander

Would be commendable if it was the case, but Ambrose isn't as good in favorable conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

The more I go into Ambrose's record and realise his MO, the more I realise he doesnt belong in the top five and more with Wasim/Lillee.

Until 94, he was undoubtedly the best bowler in the world. He had a good series in SC and conquered pretty much everywhere with his super spell.

But the last half plus of his career was quite short of that. He wasn't penetrative, he was hammered in the SC, and very much condition dependent.

But his MO was pretty much in the corridor, back of length, monotony. None of the nous of McGrath, swing of Imran/Steyn, cutters of Marshall.

I think that there is sufficient reason to doubt whether he would have been as successful if he was given more chances on flatter pitches.

 

[subshakerz]

Compared to Warne, Ambrose wasn't destroyed nearly as much as Warne but he was probably neutralised more often.

Warne's main issue is India. It isn't even conditions as much.

 

[shortpitched713]

But his MO was pretty much in the corridor, back of length, monotony. None of the nous of McGrath

This is silly. They both resorted to this in unfavourable conditions, because... well it worked and it's not their fault for doing that. Ambrose a tad bit more, but both of them were a bit conservative and not balls to the wall strike bowlers for all conditions like a Steyn , or even Marshall or Hadlee.

Also, I'm not going to argue that Ambrose was as great later on as in his early career, but his average was still damn impressive for a player no longer at his peak. Sub 26 (usually sub 24) for every year after 94. To me that's useful longevity, not something to be used against him.

The nice thing about both him and McGrath, is that they simply could not be targeted to hit out of the attack even in tough bowling conditions. It was too risky in playing those strokes and when batsmen did they would pay.

The others, it was still very cat and mouse for the most part, but you could attack good length deliveries more reasonably.