It is unfair to Imran that the only grounds for comparison are in the counties where Ambrose did well. The fact Ambrose doesn’t have an away record worth considering outside Aus and Eng in any single country, is to his detriment, even if through no fault of his own. I’ll grant Ambrose is a better thab Imran in Aus and Eng, but the fact that Imran bowled enough in other countries as well is an advantage to him, and one of the things that builds an extensive record. So this is to Imran’s advantage and Curtly’s detriment. Curtly’s away record is lease than Imran’s away record cause Curtly rarely bowled in away countries outside Aus and Eng. Imran should get an advantage for having bowled in more countries away, atleast to have a more extensive record. And Imran has 18 wickets in 3 wickets in SL, that indicates a brilliant performance in a limited of tests. Ditto Nz, where his stats aren’t as great, but where he outperformed Richard Hadlee by a significant margin. The latter is enough for me to rate him as good in NZ. Ambrose’s record in certain countries is really empty, 5 wickets in 2 matches, 3 wickets in one. So I’ll sum it up as:
Imran: ATG in WI, brilliant(not great) in Aus and Eng, SL, good in Ind and Nz
Ambrose: ATG in Aus, great in Eng, good in SA(to some extent, but debatable, since for a small record, his WPM is too low to merit consideration unlike say Immy in SL)
So by virtue of Imran having had more of an extensive away record than the concentrated brilliance of Ambrose, I think he is better away. Ambrose is still a top 6 bowler of all time for me. We can’t directly compare Imran and Ambrose country by country, but that doesn’t mean Imran gets an advantage for having a valid record across more countries
I have 3 responses, so one at a time. First of all no one called you a fraud, period.
You do know not everyone has to agree with you, it's an aspect of Subz posting that isn't something you want to mimic, you can't bully everyone to see things from your perspective. You present your argument and if we choose to disagree, so be it.
The way I see it is this, of neither played tests at home and their entire career was based on their overseas record, Ambrose is still a top 10 ATG just like Lillee is (more on that later), but Imran doesn't. Look at the guys we have in our top 10's and tell me how many of them had an average over 25, none, regardless of their wpm, means they weren't efficient.
His record vs the WI considering, was very good. He went for runs, but he took wickets. Despite it apparently being much more helpful than Pakistan pitches and conditions, it still didn't approach his record against us at home, but that is something repeated in literally all of his performances away from home. He gets credit for this record but, considering the opposition, it should be the outlier. It isn't.
Before I go on, the adjectives I'm using are in relation to other ATGs not to average players. His record in England is good, similar to Hadlee's... doesn't come close to Marshall's, McGrath's or Ambrose's. And no, the team wasn't considerably worse nor that far apart in those 3 eras. You said anyone could have duplicated Ambrose's record in England, but none of the other top 10 ATGs from his era did. Give the man his due.
His record in India is poor, period. Yes the pitches were flat, they were no more flat than when Marshall and co visited. Again, ATG context. If we want to expand beyond such context, it was average to slightly above. Similar to Australia. If any bowler's average was 28, regardless of WPM, they don't get a mention in the top 10, far less among the top tier ATGs, that's a fact. There wasn't small smaller size or context, he had good performances, but he didn't perform well there. Even one of his best performances there, I believe 4 / 26 was vs the WSC depleted team, but I don't take that away because he pretty much didn't do much the remainder of the matches in that series.
We do not give credit for SL, they were the equivalent of Zim / Bang for Murali and Warne. He averaged 18 in SL and 14 vs them overall, Hadlee averaged 12 vs them. NZ is below the sample size we normally look at, so wouldn't go there.
So yes, Imran played in more countries, but out side of a very good performance vs the WI, in their pomp btw, for which he does receive credit (and the reason he's in my top 6 all time), none of them were great. He was good vs England, but that's it.
With regards to Ambrose, he played where we toured, yes he missed the tour to India, but he wasn't dodging, he was injured. South Africa, yes, below the 5 test threshold, but they were literally readmitted at that time, again, no dodging. But two points, no he wasn't as penetrative in his second half, but the man somehow managed to maintain that average, that's even more difficult to accomplish. He wanted to retire earlier, but Courtney etc requested that he continue on as long as possible, yes, dangling the 400 as his carrot. And no, that's not an excuse or an explanation, maintaining that average speaks for itself, that's not just miserly. And yes, he had a tendency to drag back the length, but that's why he fifth and not among the "big three", his strike rate wasn't the best, but in his day he was destructive. Second, we toured where they believed mattered and was marque. England was always the old enemy, and Australia was who was next, the one who would eventually dominate after us, it wasn't to protect him from anywhere or factored in how nerds in the internet would view his record 30 years later. He played who was in front of him and dominated them all away from home.
Oh, and btw..... His overseas record and schedule isn't too different, sorry, practically identical to Hadlee's. Are we docking him as well, removing him from his perch in the top 3 /7? Actually his may be a tad even worse because NZ was undoubtedly the most helpful of home conditions / pitches in his era.
Double digit tests in only 3 countries, including NZ (just like Ambrose) and below the threshold in WI and Pak ( just like SL & SA for Ambrose) and just 6 in India (Pakistan tests equivalent). Was his record also not well rounded enough?
Ambrose was better away from home than Imran was, that's not up for argument imho.
