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Am I the only person who thinks Kallis was a better player than Tendulkar?

Unomaas

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
A good point to consider. I have watched more of SA matches than Indian matches but I think Indians had far worse openers as compared to SA . Let's see the first 10 years of their career to compare what kind of openers both countries had.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo [ 1990-1999: First 10 years of SAchin]

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo [ 1996 - 2005 : First 10 years of Kallis ]

Coming in at 3 is a good point but Kallis had far superior support from openers in his first 10 years as compared to Sachin. List for Indians looks a really bad one in comparison.
Yes...for JK you take into account the openers as he batted at 3 but for SRT, you also need to take into account number 3 above him (someone like Dravid...be interesting to see what effect Dravid had on SRT's career). The point I'm trying to make is that as a 3 batter, you are more likely to face the new ball than 4...that's why in most teams, your best batter bats 4 to maximise their potential.

In order to fully illustrate the point, we would most probably have to develop a stat whereby we can compare SRT, JK, Lara, Ponting and when they stepped into bat and then attach a weighting to this to account for 3 and 4 batter position discrepancies. More than JK, I would assume that Lara is the worse sufferer of this phenomenon as he was most probably a de facto opener in his early career(most probably why he moved down to 4). I don't think Ponting suffered from this problem as he had Hayden and Langer making merry at the top.
 

simonlee48

School Boy/Girl Captain
So why is that Sachin's record is not better than of Kallis's since the so called ATG bowlers retired?
You may not see difference but for me, those 'so called ATG bowlers' were surely ATG. Now, I can offer one possible explanation here.

Some batsmen raise their game against great bowlers but fail to raise it proportionally in same way against average bowlers. On other hands, you can have some batsmen who are not so great against great bowlers but they really hit the ball out of the park against not so great bowlers. By hitting the ball out of the park, they may take their career stats to a greater heights when compared to first set of batsmen.

Question is which ones do you prefer? I surely prefer a batsman who brings his A game against the best. This is specially true when picking batsmen for ATG batting units. They will face great bowlers. I don't care too much about my batsmen not hitting the ball of the park against average bowling unit as long as they are doing well. Relatively, a larger number of batsmen from the same team will score heavily against an average bowling unit so it won't be a problem.

Another explanation of both hitting their peak at different times has been already offered. I can't think of a third possible explanation here.
 
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simonlee48

School Boy/Girl Captain
Yes...for JK you take into account the openers as he batted at 3 but for SRT, you also need to take into account number 3 above him (someone like Dravid...be interesting to see what effect Dravid had on SRT's career). The point I'm trying to make is that as a 3 batter, you are more likely to face the new ball than 4...that's why in most teams, your best batter bats 4 to maximise their potential.

In order to fully illustrate the point, we would most probably have to develop a stat whereby we can compare SRT, JK, Lara, Ponting and when they stepped into bat and then attach a weighting to this to account for 3 and 4 batter position discrepancies. More than JK, I would assume that Lara is the worse sufferer of this phenomenon as he was most probably a de facto opener in his early career(most probably why he moved down to 4). I don't think Ponting suffered from this problem as he had Hayden and Langer making merry at the top.
It will be a great thing to develop but I am not that good with stats to help out here. I agree that Lara suffered the most due to coming in at 3 with bad openers. Kallis had good openers. Sachin had bad openers but he came at 4 so it's not so easy to compare it with Kallis here. Agreed about Ponting.

Anyway, for people who have watched all players, they will have their own preferences based on what they saw and what they liked more.
 
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Unomaas

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
So why is that Sachin's record is not better than of Kallis's since the so called ATG bowlers retired?
Because...

OverratedSanity said:
Yeah they just peaked at different times, really. Tendulkar was fortunate enough that his peak coincided with an era of great bowlers.
Which brings up another interesting point! Did you know that JK's peek was in 2005-2007 where he maxed out at 935 points on the ICC scale. Tendulkar never passed 900 on the ICC rankings. Another interesting stat to add to the debate!

ICC all time highest rankings
 
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The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Yes...for JK you take into account the openers as he batted at 3 but for SRT, you also need to take into account number 3 above him (someone like Dravid...be interesting to see what effect Dravid had on SRT's career). The point I'm trying to make is that as a 3 batter, you are more likely to face the new ball than 4...that's why in most teams, your best batter bats 4 to maximise their potential.
It all depends on the make-up of the team and the preferences of individual players, but the place for a team's premier batsman has traditionally and historically been number 3.
 

Unomaas

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
It all depends on the make-up of the team and the preferences of individual players, but the place for a team's premier batsman has traditionally and historically been number 3.
Historically yes. But the big 4 (Lara, SRT, Ponting, Kallis) and even others like Yousuf, Clark, KP, Jayawardene has redefined the position of the premier batter. Its only Sanga who seems to defy this notion.

What makes this 3 vs. 4 batter argument more interesting is if you compare Kallis batting 3 and 4. Massive difference.
 

Unomaas

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
The following is a statistical analysis from a poster on ESPN cricinfo (check the comments section) who did analysis of batsmen run scoring rates based on 2000 run blocks.

So, it seems to me fair to compare great periods in a career. If Bradman had become blind in one eye and made 60 ducks in a row we would still call him one of the greatest ever even though his average would be "only" 53. I have calculated the highest average for a career period, irrespective of when this period takes place. (It involved long Excel and Matlab calculations!) Only batsmen with more than 7500 runs are considered, although I have added Sobers and Bradman for interest's sake.

The numbers in my analysis speak for themselves. Averages are certainly not the be-all and end all, but Kallis was clearly one of the greatest batsmen ever. Ponting had a golden period, but for Kallis kept his standards high for much longer. Tendulkar was also a great talent, and starting at 16 has amassed 15000 tests runs which will surely never be beaten.
Basically what he is saying is that, take the runs that a batsman scored from 2000-4000, and then calculate the average of the run block. Similarly from 4000-6000 and calculate the average and then continue the trend until Tendulkar is in a class of his own. Top 10 results for each 2000 run block is as follows:

-----12000 Runs:-----
1) Kallis 61.49
2) Tendulkar 58.34
3) Ponting 55.82
4) Dravid 53.87

-----10000 Runs-----
1) Kallis 64.77
2) Ponting 59.90
3) Tendulkar 59.30
4) Sangakarra 59.05
5) Dravid 54.99
6) Lara 54.98
7) S Waugh 54.73
8) Border 52.48
9) Chanderpaul 52.32
10) Jayawardene 51.50

-----8000 Runs-----
1) Ponting 66.36
2) Kallis 64.90
3) Sangakarra 63.17
4) Tendulkar 62.13
5) Dravid 60.61
6) Chanderpaul 58.61
7) S Waugh 58.33
8) Jayawardene 58.24
9) Sobers 57.68
10) Hayden 56.10

-----6000 Runs-----
1) Bradman 103.78
2) Ponting 75.05
3) Kallis 71.69
4) Sobers 69.02
5) Sangakarra 67.88
6) Dravid 66.05
7) Tendulkar 64.99
8) Chanderpaul 62.36
9) Yousuf 62.06
10) S Waugh 60.58

-----4000 Runs-----
1) Bradman 102.82
2) Kallis 74.89
3) Sangakarra 74.87
4) Ponting 74.45
5) Hayden 72.33
6) Dravid 70.96
7) Sobers 70.95
8) Chanderpaul 70.68
9) Tendulkar 70.02
10) Lara 68.72

Conclusion:

The analysis above doesn't show the 0-2000 block but I can tell you that Kallis sucked @ss from 1995-1998. By the end of the 1998/1999 West Indies series where Kallis won his first man of the series award, he averaged a measly 38. If you were a national selector, you have have dropped him like a hot potato already, but then again, by the start of 1999, nobody in the team averaged above 40. 1999 till then end of his career was a golden period for Kallis but also for the South African team who finally announced themselves as contenders for the number 1 ranking but who always got beaten right back down to the ground by the invincible Aussies.

You'll also notice that Ponting either tops or sits second behind Bradman in some of the run block segments and this coincides with his marvellous golden period where in the 2000's, he recorded the 3rd highest peak rating on the ICC scale ever. It was this excellence that won Ponting so much praise and finally the Cricketer of the decade award inching out Kallis whose combined all rounder performance during the period had lots of people raising eyebrows. While Kallis was worthy competition, Ponting's captaincy skills coupled with his tenure in one of the all time great recognised teams must be acknowledged and weighted in his favour.

Tendulkar and Lara also feature on the lists but you will pick up that they are fairly consistent with others but never hitting massive peaks like Bradman, Sobers, Kallis, Ponting, Sanga.

Take a time out and notice Sanga's peaks. He is consistently kicking @ss but his achievements are constantly being overshadowed by the other batting legends.

A big thumb's up to my favorite West Indian Chanders for sharing company with the best :wub:
 

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