Allan Donald vs Joel Garner

[stephen]

Exaggerated version of a plethora of reasons used to excuse Warne's performances vs India on here. Bad form/injury/recovering from injury/divorce etc. etc. Basically he never played India at 100%.

He played India in 5 series.

1) 1991/92 in his rookie series when he was very green. He got schooled by Shastri in particular in those tests.
2) 1997/98 - the final series before his shoulder surgery. He shouldn't have played this series his shoulder was terrible at this point. It took him a year after the surgery before he was able to bowl again at all.
3) 1999/00 was the series after he was dropped in the West Indies for being in the worst form of his career, having come back from shoulder surgery prematurely (he basically had to learn how to bowl again after the surgery)
4) 2000/01 was still during this the year period of his career when he was battle injury. He also averaged over 70 against New Zealand a year later.
5) 2004 where he was actually in his late career peak and he averaged 30 in that series and missed the best pitch for spin in the series due to injury.

During that 1998-2002 period Warne averaged 34 (30 without the India matches), well above his career average. It just happened that almost all of his games against India (3 out of 5 series or 9/14 total tests) came during this period. The 2004 series was much more representative of his actual abilities than any of the other series.

It's a shame he was banned for the 03/04 India series as I think that would have been a good contest.

Edit: for the sake of comparison, the era in which Warne played his middle 3 series against India (1998-2002) he took 127 wickets at an average of 34 in 34 tests (3.7 wpm). Outside this period he took 581 wickets in 111 tests at an average of 24 (5.2 wpm).

 

[Burgey]

It might also be because Kimber is a supercilious knob head too. That doesn't help relations. See also Haigh, G.

 

[sunilz]

He played India in 5 series.

1) 1991/92 in his rookie series when he was very green. He got schooled by Shastri in particular in those tests.
2) 1997/98 - the final series before his shoulder surgery. He shouldn't have played this series his shoulder was terrible at this point. It took him a year after the surgery before he was able to bowl again at all.
3) 1999/00 was the series after he was dropped in the West Indies for being in the worst form of his career, having come back from shoulder surgery prematurely (he basically had to learn how to bowl again after the surgery)
4) 2000/01 was still during this the year period of his career when he was battle injury. He also averaged over 70 against New Zealand a year later.
5) 2004 where he was actually in his late career peak and he averaged 30 in that series and missed the best pitch for spin in the series due to injury.

During that 1998-2002 period Warne averaged 34 (30 without the India matches), well above his career average. It just happened that almost all of his games against India (3 out of 5 series or 9/14 total tests) came during this period. The 2004 series was much more representative of his actual abilities than any of the other series.

It's a shame he was banned for the 03/04 India series as I think that would have been a good contest.

Edit: for the sake of comparison, the era in which Warne played his middle 3 series against India (1998-2002) he took 127 wickets at an average of 34 in 34 tests (3.7 wpm). Outside this period he took 581 wickets in 111 tests at an average of 24 (5.2 wpm).

OK

 

[Shri]

do they?

but if they do, it's because kimber is a threat to their jobs.

not just kimber

prasanna as well

one of them learned through data that dilscoop is becoming rarer every day through data and tried planning around that but coaches and players said no and ignored the information etc

 

[ankitj]

All the quicks from Donalds era from RSA/Aus turned to water when playing each other. ATGs like Pollock and Mcgrath, as well as excellent bowlers like De Villiers and Gillespie were limping to just over 3WPM. Donald was the only quick from either side getting close to 4 with a significant amount of games IIRC. And thats with him playing his last 2 series against Aus, when his body broke down. Quirk of timing.

Look how far ahead of the others he is before that, as well as the quality of guys he was outperforming.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;opposition=3;spanmax1=31+dec+1999;spanmin1=01+jan+1990;spanval1=span;team=2;team=3;template=results;type=bowling

The only quick who could be relied on to take wickets in RSA AUS games until years after he retired. I assume you are marking everyone else down as well, and more so than him?

Donald was gun. It's indisputable. He was absolutely top tier. Shame test cricket lost his ~4 years due to isolation. Could have taken 400+ wickets at similar or better average which would have made him a contender for top 5 pace bowlers of all time. He isn't far as it is tbf.

 

[ankitj]

He played India in 5 series.

1) 1991/92 in his rookie series when he was very green. He got schooled by Shastri in particular in those tests.
2) 1997/98 - the final series before his shoulder surgery. He shouldn't have played this series his shoulder was terrible at this point. It took him a year after the surgery before he was able to bowl again at all.
3) 1999/00 was the series after he was dropped in the West Indies for being in the worst form of his career, having come back from shoulder surgery prematurely (he basically had to learn how to bowl again after the surgery)
4) 2000/01 was still during this the year period of his career when he was battle injury. He also averaged over 70 against New Zealand a year later.
5) 2004 where he was actually in his late career peak and he averaged 30 in that series and missed the best pitch for spin in the series due to injury.

During that 1998-2002 period Warne averaged 34 (30 without the India matches), well above his career average. It just happened that almost all of his games against India (3 out of 5 series or 9/14 total tests) came during this period. The 2004 series was much more representative of his actual abilities than any of the other series.

It's a shame he was banned for the 03/04 India series as I think that would have been a good contest.

Edit: for the sake of comparison, the era in which Warne played his middle 3 series against India (1998-2002) he took 127 wickets at an average of 34 in 34 tests (3.7 wpm). Outside this period he took 581 wickets in 111 tests at an average of 24 (5.2 wpm).

#BrokenToeNails

 

[_00_deathscar]

He played India in 5 series.

1) 1991/92 in his rookie series when he was very green. He got schooled by Shastri in particular in those tests.
2) 1997/98 - the final series before his shoulder surgery. He shouldn't have played this series his shoulder was terrible at this point. It took him a year after the surgery before he was able to bowl again at all.
3) 1999/00 was the series after he was dropped in the West Indies for being in the worst form of his career, having come back from shoulder surgery prematurely (he basically had to learn how to bowl again after the surgery)
4) 2000/01 was still during this the year period of his career when he was battle injury. He also averaged over 70 against New Zealand a year later.
5) 2004 where he was actually in his late career peak and he averaged 30 in that series and missed the best pitch for spin in the series due to injury.

During that 1998-2002 period Warne averaged 34 (30 without the India matches), well above his career average. It just happened that almost all of his games against India (3 out of 5 series or 9/14 total tests) came during this period. The 2004 series was much more representative of his actual abilities than any of the other series.

It's a shame he was banned for the 03/04 India series as I think that would have been a good contest.

Edit: for the sake of comparison, the era in which Warne played his middle 3 series against India (1998-2002) he took 127 wickets at an average of 34 in 34 tests (3.7 wpm). Outside this period he took 581 wickets in 111 tests at an average of 24 (5.2 wpm).

Was the whole point of this post just to prove me right?

@duffer @The Sean - there you go.

 

[a massive zebra]

Yeah, while an average of 30 is tolerable in isolation, it isn't very impressive for the best series of someone often considered to be the best spinner ever. It also wasn't very impressive in the context of the series, with most of the top Indian batsmen out of form (series averages Dravid 27, Tendulkar 17, Laxman 17) and Warne being completely out bowled by the opposition spinners (Kumble and Harbhajan both took around double the number of wickets at much better averages). If Warne could only take 14 wickets @ 30 against a completely shot batting lineup, it's hardly surprising he was hammered time and again by the same side when their batsmen had been in form in previous series.

 

[Gob]

He played India in 5 series.

1) 1991/92 in his rookie series when he was very green. He got schooled by Shastri in particular in those tests.
2) 1997/98 - the final series before his shoulder surgery. He shouldn't have played this series his shoulder was terrible at this point. It took him a year after the surgery before he was able to bowl again at all.
3) 1999/00 was the series after he was dropped in the West Indies for being in the worst form of his career, having come back from shoulder surgery prematurely (he basically had to learn how to bowl again after the surgery)
4) 2000/01 was still during this the year period of his career when he was battle injury. He also averaged over 70 against New Zealand a year later.
5) 2004 where he was actually in his late career peak and he averaged 30 in that series and missed the best pitch for spin in the series due to injury.

During that 1998-2002 period Warne averaged 34 (30 without the India matches), well above his career average. It just happened that almost all of his games against India (3 out of 5 series or 9/14 total tests) came during this period. The 2004 series was much more representative of his actual abilities than any of the other series.

It's a shame he was banned for the 03/04 India series as I think that would have been a good contest.

Edit: for the sake of comparison, the era in which Warne played his middle 3 series against India (1998-2002) he took 127 wickets at an average of 34 in 34 tests (3.7 wpm). Outside this period he took 581 wickets in 111 tests at an average of 24 (5.2 wpm).

Very good post.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah, while an average of 30 is tolerable in isolation, it isn't very impressive for the best series of someone often considered to be the best spinner ever. It also wasn't very impressive in the context of the series, with most of the top Indian batsmen out of form (series averages Dravid 27, Tendulkar 17, Laxman 17) and Warne being completely out bowled by the opposition spinners (Kumble and Harbhajan both took around double the number of wickets at much better averages). If Warne could only take 14 wickets @ 30 against a completely shot batting lineup, it's hardly surprising he was hammered time and again by the same side when their batsmen had been in form in previous series.

The one test he missed that series was a rank turner tbf

 

[honestbharani]

The one test he missed that series was a rank turner tbf

TBF, wrist spinners dont seem to enjoy those tracks as much as finger spinners do.

 

[_00_deathscar]

The one test he missed that series was a rank turner tbf

Was it cos he had a broken toe nail?

 

[subshakerz]

He played India in 5 series.

1) 1991/92 in his rookie series when he was very green. He got schooled by Shastri in particular in those tests.
2) 1997/98 - the final series before his shoulder surgery. He shouldn't have played this series his shoulder was terrible at this point. It took him a year after the surgery before he was able to bowl again at all.
3) 1999/00 was the series after he was dropped in the West Indies for being in the worst form of his career, having come back from shoulder surgery prematurely (he basically had to learn how to bowl again after the surgery)
4) 2000/01 was still during this the year period of his career when he was battle injury. He also averaged over 70 against New Zealand a year later.
5) 2004 where he was actually in his late career peak and he averaged 30 in that series and missed the best pitch for spin in the series due to injury.

During that 1998-2002 period Warne averaged 34 (30 without the India matches), well above his career average. It just happened that almost all of his games against India (3 out of 5 series or 9/14 total tests) came during this period. The 2004 series was much more representative of his actual abilities than any of the other series.

It's a shame he was banned for the 03/04 India series as I think that would have been a good contest.

Edit: for the sake of comparison, the era in which Warne played his middle 3 series against India (1998-2002) he took 127 wickets at an average of 34 in 34 tests (3.7 wpm). Outside this period he took 581 wickets in 111 tests at an average of 24 (5.2 wpm).

Warne had wrecked SA just a couple of months before this tour of India though. I honestly think this series Warne was simply destroyed through a combo of inexperience playing in India, lacking of quality bowling support and a top form Sidhu and Tendulkar.

 

[honestbharani]

Warne had wrecked SA just a couple of months before this tour of India though. I honestly think this series Warne was simply destroyed through a combo of inexperience playing in India, lacking of quality bowling support and a top form Sidhu and Tendulkar.

And Azhar... and Dravid who did well to blunt them early with his defence. And Mongia, tbh. But yeah, Azhar tore apart Warney at the Eden even when Sachin got out relatively early.

 

[subshakerz]

He played India in 5 series.

1) 1991/92 in his rookie series when he was very green. He got schooled by Shastri in particular in those tests.
2) 1997/98 - the final series before his shoulder surgery. He shouldn't have played this series his shoulder was terrible at this point. It took him a year after the surgery before he was able to bowl again at all.
3) 1999/00 was the series after he was dropped in the West Indies for being in the worst form of his career, having come back from shoulder surgery prematurely (he basically had to learn how to bowl again after the surgery)
4) 2000/01 was still during this the year period of his career when he was battle injury. He also averaged over 70 against New Zealand a year later.
5) 2004 where he was actually in his late career peak and he averaged 30 in that series and missed the best pitch for spin in the series due to injury.

During that 1998-2002 period Warne averaged 34 (30 without the India matches), well above his career average. It just happened that almost all of his games against India (3 out of 5 series or 9/14 total tests) came during this period. The 2004 series was much more representative of his actual abilities than any of the other series.

It's a shame he was banned for the 03/04 India series as I think that would have been a good contest.

Edit: for the sake of comparison, the era in which Warne played his middle 3 series against India (1998-2002) he took 127 wickets at an average of 34 in 34 tests (3.7 wpm). Outside this period he took 581 wickets in 111 tests at an average of 24 (5.2 wpm).

This again is misleading. He took 15@27 the series just prior against NZ and 31@18 against England the following series.

 

[stephen]

This again is misleading. He took 15@27 the series just prior against NZ and 31@18 against England the following series.

It's really not misleading at all. Taking wickets against England in England is far less physically demanding than taking wickets in Australia. And you'd hardly say that taking wickets at an average of 27 against NZ is particularly flattering, given their lineup at the time. And like I said, a year later he averaged 70 against NZ. He was clearly way below his best during this period as evidenced by his average during this period being way higher than his average outside this period even if we exclude the three series he played against India.

Warne had wrecked SA just a couple of months before this tour of India though. I honestly think this series Warne was simply destroyed through a combo of inexperience playing in India, lacking of quality bowling support and a top form Sidhu and Tendulkar.

Nah mate, his shoulder was basically completely rooted at this point. You can clearly see in this video he just wasn't landing them - accuracy all over the place and nowhere near the energy in the ball that you normally saw in early era Warne:

Compare his bowling there to:

 

[Line and Length]

Interesting how a thread about Donald v Garner becomes all about Warne.

 

[Shady Slim]

Interesting how a thread about Donald v Garner becomes all about Warne.

just wait for someone to mention murali then it really takes off!!

 

[Migara]

He played India in 5 series.

1) 1991/92 in his rookie series when he was very green. He got schooled by Shastri in particular in those tests.
2) 1997/98 - the final series before his shoulder surgery. He shouldn't have played this series his shoulder was terrible at this point. It took him a year after the surgery before he was able to bowl again at all.
3) 1999/00 was the series after he was dropped in the West Indies for being in the worst form of his career, having come back from shoulder surgery prematurely (he basically had to learn how to bowl again after the surgery)
4) 2000/01 was still during this the year period of his career when he was battle injury. He also averaged over 70 against New Zealand a year later.
5) 2004 where he was actually in his late career peak and he averaged 30 in that series and missed the best pitch for spin in the series due to injury.

During that 1998-2002 period Warne averaged 34 (30 without the India matches), well above his career average. It just happened that almost all of his games against India (3 out of 5 series or 9/14 total tests) came during this period. The 2004 series was much more representative of his actual abilities than any of the other series.

It's a shame he was banned for the 03/04 India series as I think that would have been a good contest.

Edit: for the sake of comparison, the era in which Warne played his middle 3 series against India (1998-2002) he took 127 wickets at an average of 34 in 34 tests (3.7 wpm). Outside this period he took 581 wickets in 111 tests at an average of 24 (5.2 wpm).

Does that explain the flogging he received in ODI game in the hands of Indians, even ones like Ajay Jadeja and Robin Singh?

 

[ankitj]

Yeah, how do you explain ODI record? Even in Warne's ATG 1999 world cup, he got some good spanking from India's lower order (top order was cleaned up by McGrath)