All time XI

[SJS]

IMO it is rather unwise to select old players who never played one-day cricket for one-day teams. Test and one-day cricket are completely different games and require different skills as shown by the comparative failure of Gavaskar and Marshall and the success of Bevan and Agarkar.

I agree but I feel it is more true for batsmen than for bowlers. So I have included only those batsmen who were aggressive even in test matches and not some of the other TEST greats like Hobbs, Hammond etc.

I think a great stroke player like Bradman, Compton or Pollock would adjust to the needs of one day game if required. They have played in "one day mode' in test and first class games. Comptons three hour 180 plus and Bradman's triple hundred in a day of test are examples.

Great all rounders like Sobers would always be successful.

Bowlers are ther to take wickets too in addition to keeping down the runs. The bowlers taken satisfy both criteria.

 

[SJS]

Yet Hayden is in the shortlist for openers!

I put Hayden as an after thought. You could remove him

 

[SJS]

Neither Lara nor Tendulkar good enough to make the Test squad?

I agree. Its an error. I started with choosing a twelve member squad. Later when I revised it to a touring party I should have added more batsmen. Lara and Tendulkar would have been my choice too.

 

[SJS]

Also the idea of my selection was not just to "impose' these players but to get ideas on the pool from which to select before the next step of actual selection. A kind of step-by-step consensual approach

 

[Craig]

Graeme Pollock must be unlucky to make must people's all-time Test XI's.

 

[Jamee999]

SELECTION MADE EASY !!

Its contentious choosing an 11 but perhaps a bit easier to agree on a touring side. So how about a 16 member test side and a 14 member ODI side. I am goiving a pool of players to choose from. IDEAS ??

All Time test Team

Openers : Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Trumper, Gavaskar, Barry Richards, (Choose any three)

One down batsman : Don Bradman ( Choose any one )

Middle order batsmen : Viv Richards, Everton Weekes, George Headley, Hammond, Graeme Pollock, Tendulkar, Lara (Choose any four)

All Rounder : Garfield Sobers (Choose any one)

Wicket keeper : Evans, Oldfield, Taylor, Knott, Marsh, Healy (Choose any two)
Spinners : Grimett, Orielly, Warne, Murali, Laker, Verity (Choose any two)
Pacers : Barnes, Larwood, Trueman, Lindwall, Lillee, Ambrose, Walsh, Holding, Marshall, Garner, Wasim, Imran, Hadlee, (choose any three)

ONE DAY TEAM

Batsmen : Tendulkar, Lara, Bradman, Viv Richards, Barry Richards, Graeme Pollock, Ponting, Hayden, Compton, Dexter, (Choose any six)

Wicket keeper : Gilchrist, Walcott. Ames (Choose any one)

Batting All Rounders : Sobers, Botham, Kallis, Woolley (Choose any two )
Bowling All Rounders : Hadlee, Imran, Miller, Marshall, Mankad, Kapil, Proctor (Choose any three)

Bowlers : Lillee, Barnes, Akram, Lindwall, Warne Murali, Holding (Choose any two)

NOTE : Amended based on suggestions.[/I]

Using this

Tests

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Gavaskar
Bradman
Richards
Pollock
Tendulkar
Lara
Sobers
Healy
Knott
Warne
Muralli
Walsh
Hadlee
Wasim

ODI's

Tendulkar
V.Richards
B.Richards
Ponting
Hayden
Lara
Gilchrist
Kallis
Sobers
Kapil
Imran
Hadlee
Akram
Muralli

 

[roseboy64]

Tests

Hobbs
Hutton
Gavaskar
Bradman
Headley
Pollock
Lara
Tendulkar
Sobers
Knott
Healy
Warne
Murali
Imran
Walsh
Ambrose


ODIs
Tendulkar
Lara
V.Richards
Pollock
Bradman
Ponting
Gilchrist
Sobers
Botham
Imran
Marshall
Kapil
Akram
Murali

 

[SJS]

Thats interesting. Roseboy's and Jaimee's response has the following common players :-

Tests.

Openers - Hobbs and Gavaskar

Middle Order - Bradman, Graeme Pollock, Tendulkar Lara.
All Rounder - Sobers

Wicket Keepers - Knott and Healy

Spinners - Warne and Murali

Pacers - Walsh

Thats twelve out of 16 slots. The remaining being, Hutton or Sutcliffe, Viv Richards or George Headley, Any two out of Hadlee, Imran, Akram and Ambrose.

Maybe if we had more people choosing we could list a people's choice here

 

[roseboy64]

Hey you double-posted.

 

[Waughney]

Using SJS's structure:

ALL TIME TEST TEAM

Openers: Hobbs Sutcliffe Hayden

One Down: Don Bradman

Middle Order: Viv Richards George Headley Graeme Pollock Tendulkar

Allrounder: Garfield Sobers

Keepers: Healy Gilchrist

Spinners: Warne Murali

Fast Bowlers: Lillee Holding Mcgrath

ALL TIME ONE DAY TEAM

Batsmen: Tendulkar, Lara, Bradman, Viv Richards, Graeme Pollock, Ponting

Wicket keeper : Gilchrist

Batting All Rounders : Sobers, Kallis

Bowling All Rounders : Marshall, Kapil

Bowlers : Lillee, Akram, Lindwall, Warne

 

[Craig]

Thats interesting. Roseboy's and Jaimee's response has the following common players :-

Tests.

Openers - Hobbs and Gavaskar

Middle Order - Bradman, Graeme Pollock, Tendulkar Lara.
All Rounder - Sobers

Wicket Keepers - Knott and Healy

Spinners - Warne and Murali

Pacers - Walsh

Thats twelve out of 16 slots. The remaining being, Hutton or Sutcliffe, Viv Richards or George Headley, Any two out of Hadlee, Imran, Akram and Ambrose.

Maybe if we had more people choosing we could list a people's choice here

The rest being, Sir Len Hutton, George Headley, Wasim Akram, and Sir Richard Hadlee or Imran Khan.

 

[SJS]

Okay. Here is my selection.

TESTS

Openers : Hobbs Sutcliffe and Hutton (Purely chosen on solidity and proven record of long innings and partnerships. Gavaskar unlucky to lose out due to his slight weakness outside the off stump)

One Down : Bradman

Middle Order : - Hammond, Headley, Pollock and Viv Richards. (Hammond and Headley are second only to Bradman in performance. Pollock is probably the best left hander the game has seen and Viv Richards to put the fear of God in the bowlers minds)

All Rounder : Sobers

Keepers : Bob Taylor and Alan Knott ( Keeping has really evolved over the years with the real old timers being better standing up to the stumps and the newer crop being brilliant in the goal keeper mold standing back. I think these two more or less bisect the two eras of keepers and bring the best of agility both while standing back to the quickies and up to the stumps. Bothe were technically flawless. Batting was not a criteria though Knott can be invaluable.)

Spinners : Orielly and Murali ( I have chosen a leg spinner and an off spinner since Sobers provides the left arm spin. If the game accepts Murali's 500 plus wickets in the record books then we have to admit that of all those in the record books he was the most unplayable off spinner. I know Warne has many fans around the world but I have always felt that he suffers of account of not having a wrong one for almost his entire career and being totally flummoxed by confident fleet footed Indian batsmen. If we leave out Warne then it is a toss up between Grimmett and Orielly. I chose the latter since the Don thinks he was better. I have a sneaky feeling it maybe because Don never liked Grimmett but I will go with it since they are both great bowlers anyway. This was the most difficult choice)

Pacers : Barnes, Hadlee , Lillee ( I never try to explain why Barnes like Bradman, Hobbs and Sobers. Hadlee was perhaps the greatest bowler most failed to recognise as a truly great fast bowler because he hit the stumps and the edge much more often than the batsman. Lillee like him was a classical fast bowler. Both could move the ball in the air and off the wicket. Both got height. Both could move it either way and both were consistently quick and hostile and focussed. This is the other difficult choice since there is an abundance of riches and you leave out many truly greats.Larwood, Trueman, Lindwall, Ambrose, Walsh, Holding, Marshall, Garner, Wasim, Imran ... WOW the very mention of these names makes the spine tingle. Honestly any other two would not be out of place in this great company)

 

[SJS]

My One Day Side

Batsmen : Tendulkar, Viv Richards, Lara, Bradman, Ponting, Pollock (Chosen purely for classy batsmenship of aggressive nature. These are batsmen who score big runs but always play there strokes. Additionally are good to brilliant fielders and exceptionally good runners between wickets)

Keeper : Gilchrist (All three were excellent batsmen but Gilchrist's devastating strokeplay after the geniuses above would commit bowlers to suicide)

Batting AllRounders : Sobers and Kallis ( Sobers needs no explanation and Kallis is a better batsman than Botham and can be very aggressive though Botham would perhaps score in aggression. With Sobers in the side, Woolley would be difficult to accomodate.. Again both, Sobers and Kallis are brilliant fielders.)

Bowling All Rounders : Imran, Richard Hadlee and Kapil. (Three great all rounders. All of them very accurate and could bowl superbly in the death overs. Very good fielders too.)

Bowlers : Murali and Akram (Chosen mainly for taking wickets though Akram can be quite economical too. Akram's batting is a bonus. This side has only one player who cant be termed a batsman and thats Murali. These two are reasonable fielders, pretty safe and sometimes spectacular.)

 

[twctopcat]

Don't know how anyone can rate Kallis above Botham in the all rounder ranks. These teams are pure dream work and i would base the selections on the players' ability, in which case Botham would get the nod over Kallis. Granted Kallis' batting average is higher but this is in today's world of flat tracks and not superb bowling attacks. Botham although statistically not as good was the best matchwinner in the world during the 80's (along with Kapil and Imran). His batting was superb at times and could swing it either way with an outswing as devastating as Truemans'. Kallis' bowling pales into mediocrity in comparison.

 

[SJS]

Don't know how anyone can rate Kallis above Botham in the all rounder ranks. These teams are pure dream work and i would base the selections on the players' ability, in which case Botham would get the nod over Kallis. Granted Kallis' batting average is higher but this is in today's world of flat tracks and not superb bowling attacks. Botham although statistically not as good was the best matchwinner in the world during the 80's (along with Kapil and Imran). His batting was superb at times and could swing it either way with an outswing as devastating as Truemans'. Kallis' bowling pales into mediocrity in comparison.

I think you will agree that everyone has a right to express their choice ..right ?

Having said that, I agree that Botham is a better all rounder than Kallis but here we were clearly asking for a batting all rounder. I have spent a lot of time on this board in the last two days trying to convoince people Botham is a better all rounder than Imran, I dont need convincing on Botham's amazing abilities. However, in choosing a side, with the other players I had at my disposal and with the balance of the side in mind, I picked Kallis over Botham purely because Kallis is a better batsman.

You may disagree but thats okay

By the way, we have finished the counting and In the batting all rounder category, 4 votes each have gone to Kallis and Sobers (imagine there are some who wont vote for Sobers too !!) and only one for Botham and none for Woolley. Just for your information please.

 

[twctopcat]

Fair enough, but it's still difficult to compare the two as batsmen as Kallis' average wouldn't be so high had he batted at the time of Botham, not that he isn't a great batsman. Didn't realise it was batting allrounder you were looking at anyway, so i can see your reasoning for Kallis now.
N.B I'd still have Botham any day of the week

 

[SJS]

The selectors Choice

TEST 16:
Jack Hobbs,
Len Hutton,
Sunil Gavaskar,
Don Bradman,
Graeme Pollock,
George Headley,
Sachin Tendulkar,
Brian Lara (courtesy tie breaking vote by Massive Zebra),
Garfield Sobers,
Alan Knott,
Ian Healy,
Muttiah Muralitharan,
Shane Warne,
Courtney Walsh,
Richard Hadlee,
Dennis Lillee

Colour Code :
100 percent votes
60% or more
Less than 50%

Its a great side though I miss Viv Richards and Syd Barnes

ODI 14

Tendulkar
Viv Richards
Lara
Ponting
Pollock
Bradman
Gilchrist
Sobers
Kallis
Kapil
Imran
Headley
Akram
Murali

 

[SJS]

Fair enough, but it's still difficult to compare the two as batsmen as Kallis' average wouldn't be so high had he batted at the time of Botham, not that he isn't a great batsman. Didn't realise it was batting allrounder you were looking at anyway, so i can see your reasoning for Kallis now.
N.B I'd still have Botham any day of the week

I think Botham did not do enough justice to his batting talents. He had scored 11 centuries in his first 51 tests and only 3 more in the next 51 of which only ONE in the last 38 !!. As I wrote to someone else here, he was good enough to play for England as a batsman but I feel he was not willing to work at his batting. He should have taken his batting more seriously and he would have averaged in the 40's.

 

[twctopcat]

I think Botham did not do enough justice to his batting talents. He had scored 10 centuries before his 50th test and scored only 4 more in the next 57. As I wrote to someone else here, he was good enough to play for England as a batsman but I feel he was not willing to work at his batting. He should have taken his batting more seriously and he would have averaged in the 40's.

See what you mean. I think he perhaps ate a few too many pies and no doubt lost it a bit towards the end, a big shame.

 

[a massive zebra]

I think he perhaps ate a few too many pies

It is a fair point though.

First 70 Tests: 70 112 3 4078 208 37.41 13 17
Last 32 Tests: 32 49 3 1122 138 24.39 1 5

However, in all honestly, even at his peak, he never really did anything of note with the bat in ODIs.