All time ODI XI

[trundler]

Pollock at 7 or 8 is a even bigger must than Kapil. ATG ODI bowler(393 wickets @24, magnificent ER), and averages 30 at 7 at SR of 88. In my opinion, the best ODI all rounder ever.

Yeah but he's not better than Wasim, McGrath or Garner with ball and not a better all rounder than Dev.

 

[Godard]

E-R-A differences man. Clive Lloyd is the perfect lower order batsman from the dinosaur era and his SR was 79. Lloyd is the proto Symonds/Hussey.

but we are discussing an ATG XI. Only players who transcend their eras are ATG’s, so by an ATG standard, not the minimum threshold. By the era yes, but we aren’t making an era specific XI.

 

[trundler]

Afridi was Mos in T20 WC 2007, won Pak T20 WC 2009, was highest wicket taker in ODI WC 2011 . Guy would make most countries 1st 11 or 2nd 11.

Great T20 player. Even in 2011 he mostly feasted on Kenya and Canada. Zak was better. He was good with the ball but a massive disappointment in every tournament with the bat. Terrible overall WC record in ODIs.

 

[ashley bach]

1 McCullum
2 Guptill
3 Williamson
4 Taylor
5 Crowe
6 Cairns
7 Dharmasena
8 Hadlee
9 Vettori
10 Bond
11 Bo

One of the great ODI bowlers of all time imo completely slips under the radar here. Ewen Chatfield was as miserly as they came.
He played 114 matches and had an economy rate of 3.57 and averaged 25 per wicket.
Only Hadlee 3.30, Ambrose 3.48, and Marshall 3.53 had a better economy rate.

 

[Godard]

Yeah but he's not better than Wasim, McGrath or Garner with ball and not a better all rounder than Dev.

In the league of McGrath, Wasim and Garner for sure. Bloke has nearly 400 wickets at an ER of 3.68(fantastic for his era). He is a better batsmen than Kapil at 7 half the time, because has an SR of nearly 90, and averages 30.

 

[Godard]

Pollock is surely amongst 7 or so greatest ODI bowlers.

 

[trundler]

but we are discussing an ATG XI. Only players who transcend their eras are ATG’s, so by an ATG standard, not the minimum threshold. By the era yes, but we aren’t making an era specific XI.

Averages and strike rates depend on context though. Only Richards is a great batsman from that era and only Starc and Bumrah are great bowlers today going by that. All that matters is being world class in your era imo.

 

[Godard]

Averages and strike rates depend on context though. Only Richards is a great batsman from that era and only Starc and Bumrah are great bowlers today going by that. All that matters is being world class in your era imo.

All time great players are great for any era. This is why they are called “all time greats”. Again there might be other players from Richards’s era who were great, but only Richards and Abbas are ODI ATGs, not merely great, all time greats I repeat. And yes maybe only Starc and Bumrah are potential ODI ATG bowlers today, because ATG criteria is tough.

 

[subshakerz]

I am not buying Imran as some outstanding odi batsman.

He could never rotate strike, would hit a four or a six here and there to keep up but still abat at a sluggish SR of around 50 for 80% of the innings being the alpha male and captain no one dared to question his approach and put him under pessure to bat at a quicker pace. Come the last 5-7 overs if he was there turn his 20(42) in to 60 (65) with some big hitting which i admit to his credit would come off quite often.

In retrospect Imran the odi batsman is not that different to misbah. Strong defence combined with big six hitting but let down by his strike rotation.

Yeah but the position we are talking about is no.7 when he just needs to get his eye in and then start hitting, seems like he can do that.

Neither Kapil nor Imran are great ODI bats.

 

[Godard]

Yeah but the position we are talking about is no.7 when he just needs to get his eye in and then start hitting, seems like he can do that.

Neither Kapil nor Imran are great ODI bats.

All I am saying Kapil is better at 7 than Imran, just like Imran is better at 3/4. And both are in yeh same tier as ODI bowlers. Peaks of 149@23 and 186@24 are more or less the same.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes Trundler - it's fair if you consider it overwhelmingly significant. But it's not misleading.

If we didn't know their SR then it will be perfectly fair to say that Kapil was a far worse batsman compared to Imran and he is worse in spite of the SR - but the SR is what makes them closer than what their averages say, not because the averages are misleading in some manner.

Both Kapil and Imran declined in the early nineties.

Look at their numbers from the 1980s when they were in their peaks.

Kapil has an identical batting average of 26 for bowling and batting. Very good.

All-round records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Imran has a batting average of 33 and a bowling average of 23! Quite impressive. Once again, Imran surprises.

All-round records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

I think after this there shouldnt be a doubt that Imran is a superior ODI allrounder.

 

[honestbharani]

Do you think De Silva, Jones and Lloyd were slow batsmen?

If they batted at 7 and 8 with that SR, abso-bloody-lutely.

 

[subshakerz]

All I am saying Kapil is better at 7 than Imran, just like Imran is better at 3/4. And both are in yeh same tier as ODI bowlers. Peaks of 149@23 and 186@24 are more or less the same.

You are inflating how good Kapil was as a bat. He only scored 14 fifties in a long career. He wasn't as good as Razzaq even. Basically a slogger.

 

[Xuhaib]

I would take Imran over Kapil only if we are taking Gilly over Dhoni as Keeper.

Imran and Dhoni are two best odi captains for me but if Dhoni is not in your XI then Imran gets in for captaincy aswell.

Since i am having Dhoni as Captain so neither Kapil or Imran get in i go for Klusner as he could do batting roles of both Kapil and Imran but better. He is a weaker bowler then the two but i am looking for a middle overs holding 5th bowler as i already have elite 4 front line bowlers so Zulu along with Sanath does the job abley there aswell.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah Kapil was a slogger as much as Imran was a selfish red-inker .


And yet we are told saltshakerz is not biased.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

And yes maybe only Starc and Bumrah are potential ODI ATG bowlers today, because ATG criteria is tough.

And Boult
Possibly Rashid Khan if he plays more "big" teams

 

[OverratedSanity]

Kapil's batting isn't good enough for him to bat higher than 8 in any team imo. Actually think there's a better argument for him having been a more impactful test batsman than Imran instead of ODIs.

 

[honestbharani]

I would take Imran over Kapil only if we are taking Gilly over Dhoni as Keeper.

Imran and Dhoni are two best odi captains for me but if Dhoni is not in your XI then Imran gets in for captaincy aswell.

Since i am having Dhoni as Captain so neither Kapil or Imran get in i go for Klusner as he could do batting roles of both Kapil and Imran but better. He is a weaker bowler then the two but i am looking for a middle overs holding 5th bowler as i already have elite 4 front line bowlers so Zulu along with Sanath does the job abley there aswell.

I actually think Klusener and a whole bunch of similar block-bash batsmen are not that good at #7 if we are talking ATG sides. You need batsmen who have better tempo and options than just block or slog. That is where, for me, Kapil and Stokes come in. Even Pollock to an extent.

 

[Godard]

Both Kapil and Imran declined in the early nineties.

Look at their numbers from the 1980s when they were in their peaks.

Kapil has an identical batting average of 26 for bowling and batting. Very good.

All-round records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Imran has a batting average of 33 and a bowling average of 23! Quite impressive. Once again, Imran surprises.

All-round records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

I think after this there shouldnt be a doubt that Imran is a superior ODI allrounder.

Three things I disagree with. First of all you have assumed that both of them exactly peaked from 1980-89. Secondly you have mentioned Imran’s bowling average but not wickets taken. You have mentioned Imran’s batting average but not his SR, neither his batting position. Imran’s peak was from 79-89, where his batting average was 33 and SR was 74(and he mostly batted above 6). He took 149 wicket@23. Kapil’s peak was from 81-91, when he took 205 wickets@25(186@24 from 83-91). His batting average was 26 and his SR was 97.75. He mostly batted at 6 or below. He is much more suitable for the position at 7, since he batted their more, and even while Imran batted at 7, his average was sub 30 like Dev’s and SR was 80, much below Dev’s. We can only compare Dev and Imran as batsmen for the same position. They are clearly similar as bowlers, but Kapil is a much superior no 7 batsmen, and there are few who match him here, due to his simultaneous very good bowling stats and his SR. Imran is a similar ODI bowler, but as a batsmen, he is not as important at 7 as Kapil, and even at 3/4/5, it is not like he is the best option there.

 

[honestbharani]

To elaborate, there are many batsmen in the 80s and 90s who cant or do not have the scoring options of a well placed drive, or cut, or glide, or flick or even a pull. They can slog the ball or they can block and they tend to do both pretty well. A great example is Klusener. If he came in during a collapse, he just waited and waited and waited till the RRR got to 8 or 9 and then started slogging out. Maybe it helps him get his eye in or whatever but he is definitely successful quite a few times. But, as a fan watching the game, I always felt he did not have the game to take advantage of actual loose balls or gaps in the field which can actually ensure the RRR never got to the out of hand situations in the first place. Post 2015 Dhoni was the same.

To me, I would rather pick batsmen with proper scoring options like Kapil or Stokes over these guys for #7.