All Time New Zealand XI

[Flem274*]

Thats a perennial Kiwi problem

Not if we go in with Hadlee, Cowie, Bond, Taylor and Cairns/Reid.

We only have a very few world class/great bowlers, I'd be stacking the team with them personally. Its not as though we have a top order that includes McIntosh, Papps and Marshall, we have one that can score some runs.

Cowie didnt play many tests its true, but he played a lot of high quality players in his few tests and in FC matches on tour in Australia and England. Was it Wisden that said if he was Australian he would have been remembered as a great? I'd include him in your line up. We'll be facing the likes of Bradman, and he's the only bowler we have that has ever got him out for a low score for a start.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

No love for Ken Wadsworth behind the stumps?

I was wondering how far this thread was going to go through the Smith/McCullum debate before the best man for the job was mentioned. Sadly cut down in his prime, not only in his career but also his life.

 

[Days of Grace]

I was wondering how far this thread was going to go through the Smith/McCullum debate before the best man for the job was mentioned. Sadly cut down in his prime, not only in his career but also his life.

Are we saying that Wadsworth was the best because we have seen him play or have read articles about him?

Or are we saying he was the best because he died so young, aka Victor Trumper?

 

[Hurricane]

Regarding Vettori and questions of whether we should pick him or not. I am planning to pick him - he has the second most number of wickets behind Paddles and secondly he has troubled some of the batsman we will playing against in the best XI competition.

Here is the list of his top ten dismissed batsman:

SK Warne (Aus) 1997-2005 9
Mohammad Ashraful (Ban) 2001-2008 8
R Dravid (India) 1998-2009 5
AC Gilchrist (Aus) 2000-2005 5
DR Martyn (Aus) 2000-2005 5
D Ramdin (WI) 2006-2008 5
SR Tendulkar (India) 1998-2009 4
ML Hayden (Aus) 2001-2008 4
JL Langer (Aus) 2000-2005 4
M Muralitharan (SL) 1997-2009 4

Amongst some easy players like Ashraful - there is Gilchrist and Tendulkar who we definitely be playing against. And Hayden and Dravid who we might be playing against.

Vettori won't run through any batting line ups for us but he might take a 3fer or a 2fer while tying down an end to create pressure for the other bowlers.

Also Bradman was somewhat susceptible to spin so we need a spinner.

 

[Smudge]

Are we saying that Wadsworth was the best because we have seen him play or have read articles about him?

Or are we saying he was the best because he died so young, aka Victor Trumper?

I haven't seen much of Wadsworth vision-wise, aside from clips on highlights tapes - that is, other than some historic NZ v England tests (which were extensive highlights of each test) from the 1973 tour of England. I can't say I was massively impressed with Wadsworth - he dropped an absolute clanger off Howarth, I think. Would definitely stick with Stockley Smith in my XI.

 

[Craig]

Regarding Vettori and questions of whether we should pick him or not. I am planning to pick him - he has the second most number of wickets behind Paddles and secondly he has troubled some of the batsman we will playing against in the best XI competition.

Here is the list of his top ten dismissed batsman:

SK Warne (Aus) 1997-2005 9
Mohammad Ashraful (Ban) 2001-2008 8
R Dravid (India) 1998-2009 5
AC Gilchrist (Aus) 2000-2005 5
DR Martyn (Aus) 2000-2005 5
D Ramdin (WI) 2006-2008 5
SR Tendulkar (India) 1998-2009 4
ML Hayden (Aus) 2001-2008 4
JL Langer (Aus) 2000-2005 4
M Muralitharan (SL) 1997-2009 4

Amongst some easy players like Ashraful - there is Gilchrist and Tendulkar who we definitely be playing against. And Hayden and Dravid who we might be playing against.

Vettori won't run through any batting line ups for us but he might take a 3fer or a 2fer while tying down an end to create pressure for the other bowlers.

Also Bradman was somewhat susceptible to spin so we need a spinner.

Somehow I doubt Dan will have the luxury of uncovered wickets like Hedley Verity did.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Are we saying that Wadsworth was the best because we have seen him play or have read articles about him?

Or are we saying he was the best because he died so young, aka Victor Trumper?

We have seen him play. It's true he dropped a potentially match winning chance at Lords on the 73 Tour of England standing up of Howarth but all keepers drop chances and it's no basis on which to judge his over all keeping.
I'm not sure what dying young has to do with anything, I don't see Ben Holioake in the Greatest Allrounder thread.

 

[Days of Grace]

All respect to Ben Holioake, but he wasn't that good a player.

Trumper and Wadsworth were good, even great cricketers for their country. Their tragic early passing though sometimes makes us look at them with misty eyes and can therefore lead us to putting them above others around the same level. I know, I have done it myself.

 

[Flem274*]

If pitches were uncovered, Vettori would be in. Has the most wickets for a bowler of his type on pitches that have probably never been worse for his bowling. His outstanding control alone would make him a threat on a day 5 uncovered pitch.

 

[Days of Grace]

But does he get bounce?

Bounce is probably more dangerous on an uncovered pitch than spin, is it not?

 

[Hurricane]

Somehow I doubt Dan will have the luxury of uncovered wickets like Hedley Verity did.

I have read somewhere but couldn't find the source that uncovered wickets helped spinners but not as much as you would think. Apparently they were very helpful when it had just rained on a sticky wicket, but other times the amount of spin was comparable to today.
I pulled the strike rates on three finger spinners from history who I thought we might agree were either equal to vettori or better than him.

H Verity 77.5
Tony Lock 75.5
Jim Laker 62.3

Vettori 76.3

Two of them have the same SR as Vettori - one of them is considerably better. If uncovered wickets were deadly then all three bowlers should be in 50s for SR and they are not.
So I think my point is that if Bradman could very occassionally get out to spin on uncovered wickets he would get out to spin with almost the same frequency today.
So I resubmit my point that including Vettori would be useful in order to get rid of Bradman.
In saying this I am expecting Bradman to still score 80 odd but perhaps we can snag him there before he scores 250 or some other prolific score.

 

[Hurricane]

Not if we go in with Hadlee, Cowie, Bond, Taylor and Cairns/Reid.

We only have a very few world class/great bowlers, I'd be stacking the team with them personally. Its not as though we have a top order that includes McIntosh, Papps and Marshall, we have one that can score some runs.

Most all time XIs have a spot reserved for a spinner. The folks at cricinfo reserved a spot for a spinner in all of their all time XIs. Towards this end derek underwood was picked ahead of Bob Willis for England.

The only reason for us being the exception to the rule and going with 4 medium pacers would be if we didn't have a good spinner.

Vettori will compare ok with derek underwood. Underwood has a SR of 73 and Vettori 76. Both have a similar number of wickets.
He also compares well to West Indies' Lance Gibbs and even has a better SR than him. Gibbs had a SR of 88.

Vettori isn't as good as Kumble or some of the spinners some of the other sides will put up but he won't be the worst. I am trying to think of who SA will put up and I don't know enough about their history but think they might struggle to come up with someone as good.

I think picking a spinner is good for the second innings and is important if it turns out that the pitch takes spin.

 

[Hurricane]

The all rounder choice is now being discussed on cricinfo

Men of many parts | All-time XIs | Cricinfo Magazine | Cricinfo.com

Chris Cairns seems to have the aggregate stats to justify his selection?

 

[Athlai]

Vettori in an alltime side would be interesting. I wonder very much how the opposition would handle him if they knew they couldn't score freely at the other end.

 

[Days of Grace]

Most teams will have a spinner in them. The only team I can think of that might not need a spinner is the West Indies.

Cairns for the win in the allrounders' spot, without a doubt.

 

[Athlai]

In matches where Bond was leading New Zealand's attack Vettori has figures of 58 W @ 24.46 in Test matches.

Home

10 W @ 19.30 vs. SL

6 W @ 22.83 vs. Bang

5 W @ 22 vs. WI

Away

11 W @ 13.72 vs. Zim

13 W @ 28.23 vs. Aus

8 W @ 26.75 vs. WI

3 W @ 35 vs. SL

2 W @ 71 in SA (though Bond did injure himself early on in that one IIRC)

 

[Zinzan]

In matches where Bond was leading New Zealand's attack Vettori has figures of 58 W @ 24.46 in Test matches.

Home

10 W @ 19.30 vs. SL

6 W @ 22.83 vs. Bang

5 W @ 22 vs. WI

Away

11 W @ 13.72 vs. Zim

13 W @ 28.23 vs. Aus

8 W @ 26.75 vs. WI

3 W @ 35 vs. SL

2 W @ 71 in SA (though Bond did injure himself early on in that one IIRC)

General point taken, although not sure you have quite enough of a sample to illustrate it from the stats above

 

[Athlai]

General point taken, although not sure you have quite enough of a sample to illustrate it from the stats above

Yeah, I also feel the same way about Franklin in ODIs

 

[Brett Dale]

Chris Cairns would have to get the all round spot.

 

[Bahnz]

Wright
Turner
Sutcliffe/Fleming
Crowe
Donnelly
Cairns
Vettori
Parore
Hadlee
Taylor
Bond

I'd almost be tempted to have Reid as the keeper, as I know he was competent, but I'm not sure quite how good, so I go with Parore who's keeping skills were unparalled. Sutcliffe and Fleming is really difficult to pick, but I'd probably side with Fleming on account of his captaincy skills. The top order is a little light with Cairns coming in at number 6, but the batting ability of the lower order (with Taylor and his two test hundreds coming in at 10) nicely makes up for it.