6th Greatest Test fast bowler

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

I think Imran is the best bowler among the guys mentioned. Lindwall at least deserved a mention in the poll imo.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Okay, my Top 30 bowlers of All Time:

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Barnes
Muralitharan
Warne
Ambrose
Steyn
Akram
Lillee
O'Reilly
Imran
Trueman
Holding
Garner
Donald
Lindwall
Davidson
Waqar
Laker
Ashwin
Grimmett
Pollock
Walsh
Roberts
Cummins
Kumble
Anderson
Bedser
Rabada

 

[Prince EWS]

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Ambrose
Imran
Steyn
Akram
Lillee
Trueman
Donald
Garner
Lindwall
Holding
Waqar

Cummins and Bumrah can end up top 10 maybe.

Bumrah is definitely not going to be able to get on the field enough IMO. Cummins a big chance though if not already there.

 

[howitzer]

Bumrah is definitely not going to be able to get on the field enough IMO. Cummins a big chance though if not already there.

I don't think Cummins is there yet, he just doesn't have the longevity. He certainly has a great chance though, and his recent return to form suggests it could happen in the next couple of years.

 

[shortpitched713]

Really wanted to vote Garner, just because I think he very clearly deserves to be in the poll. However, I honestly do think Donald shades him, as the more proficient strike bowler, but very close for value.

My 6-10

Donald
Garner
S. Pollock / Imran

S. Pollock would win on my usual consistency criteria, but it's too hard to ignore the greatest fast bowling peak of all time, by Imran, so I think he should slot in as a co-equal to S.Pollock for the 9/10 slot.

I can't count, S. Pollock, Imran get the 8/9 slot for me.

10 Wasim
11 Philander

 

[shortpitched713]

I do love that the people whinging about Garner not being on the poll haven’t voted other because they don’t think its him anyway.

I've already stated it's super close for me between Garner and Donald, and I just barely went Donald. The implication for including Garner is, that if hypothetically there was a poll for 7, 8, 9, or 10 either he still wouldn't win, which I would strongly contend against.

 

[subshakerz]

Garner as a modern bowler with no tenfer, not even 300 wickets and never at any point considered the best in the world shouldn't be put as a top ten ATG pacers.

I think he was awesome but we need some basic criteria to not let just anyone into the top ten.

 

[Prince EWS]

I actually have Imran 5th and Steyn 6th but I voted Imran in the spirit I interpreted the question. I probably actually have Davo 7th which would be a more controversial opinion.

 

[kyear2]

I actually have Imran 5th and Steyn 6th but I voted Imran in the spirit I interpreted the question. I probably actually have Davo 7th which would be a more controversial opinion.

Would be interested in seeing your top 10/12

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

I think he was awesome but we need some basic criteria to not let just anyone into the top ten.

"No more than 10 players allowed at any given time"?

 

[shortpitched713]

Garner as a modern bowler with no tenfer, not even 300 wickets and never at any point considered the best in the world shouldn't be put as a top ten ATG pacers.

This is literally just a statistical quirk. Obviously he had great bowling partners, but there's no doubt in my mind his 5w and 10w hauls would have picked up if he played the "main bowler" role.

You can absolutely not level the accusation that he simply capitalized on his partners, or was a defensive bowler like Ambrose. His SR is closer to Trueman's than Akram's, and even beats out Lillee. So certainly was a very attacking bowler.

And he did all of that as primarily a change bowler, with virtually the same average as Marshall, the very best of the lot. This is a hindrance that none of the other bowlers listed in this top 10 contention had to overcome, and yes generally it's harder to bowl change as a seamer, and will come at some cost in average, so makes his accomplishments all the more impressive.

 

[subshakerz]

This is literally just a statistical quirk. Obviously he had great bowling partners, but there's no doubt in my mind his 5w and 10w hauls would have picked up if he played the "main bowler" role.

You can absolutely not level the accusation that he simply capitalized on his partners, or was a defensive bowler like Ambrose. His SR is closer to Trueman's than Akram's, and even beats out Lillee. So certainly was a very attacking bowler.

And he did all of that as primarily a change bowler, with virtually the same average as Marshall, the very best of the lot. This is a hindrance that none of the other bowlers listed in this top 10 contention had to overcome, and yes generally it's harder to bowl change as a seamer, and will come at some cost in average, so makes his accomplishments all the more impressive.

I agree. In fact, I did an analysis where once he became an opening bowler later in his career, his 5fer ratio went up too. So I think he would have 10fers in a different situation likely. And he likely would have had a similarly excellent record if he took 300 wickets.

But the fact is he didn't. We should have some cutoffs for elite ATGs even if it seems unfair based on what they could have done. You.may not agree but I think you get the reasoning.

 

[h_hurricane]

I agree. In fact, I did an analysis where once he became an opening bowler later in his career, his 5fer ratio went up too. So I think he would have 10fers in a different situation likely. And he likely would have had a similarly excellent record if he took 300 wickets.

But the fact is he didn't. We should have some cutoffs for elite ATGs even if it seems unfair based on what they could have done. You.may not agree but I think you get the reasoning.

I propose a cut off of 258 wickets.

 

[subshakerz]

I propose a cut off of 258 wickets.

Sure bro. To each their own.

I feel that is too short though in the modern era. Even for Cummins I think it's too soon

 

[shortpitched713]

I propose a cut off of 258 wickets.

*Quickly checks Philander's career wicket tally*

No, I believe 223 wickets should be the proper cutoff.

 

[Jumno]

My list in order and I feel this represents the consensus:

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Lillee
Imran
Donald
Garner
Trueman
Wasim
Lindwall

Maybe they'll swap Garner for Donald.

 

[kyear2]

My list in order and I feel this represents the consensus:

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Lillee
Imran
Donald
Garner
Trueman
Wasim
Lindwall

Maybe they'll swap Garner for Donald.

You totally skipped Ambrose and Steyn

 

[kyear2]

My list in order and I feel this represents the consensus:

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Lillee
Imran
Donald
Garner
Trueman
Wasim
Lindwall

Maybe they'll swap Garner for Donald.

Think cw has been quite clear on consensus, as I stated earlier in the thread, I fully expect Imran to win this easily as in multiple fast bowling ratings that's where he ends up.

Most rate him in the 6 to 8th range, before of after Lillee (even evidenced by the posts here) but no argument with him being seen as 6th and leading this mini tier.

I'm just glad that Donald and even Trueman are getting more recognition as a result.

 

[Slifer]

Garner as a modern bowler with no tenfer, not even 300 wickets and never at any point considered the best in the world shouldn't be put as a top ten ATG pacers.

I think he was awesome but we need some basic criteria to not let just anyone into the top ten.

What is the world coming to, I actually agree with this. My basic cut off/criteria for atg/great fast bowlers:

Average sub 25
SR 55 or less
Wpm ~4
At least one 10 for
Average of sub 25 home and away

In terms of number of wickets I generally use a cut off of at least 200. I use 200 because quite a few players from the past simply didn't play enough tests to get many more wkts than they ended up with, through no fault of their own.

Players who don't completely meet these criteria but are top ten would be Imran and Wasim. Great bowlers who don't quite meet the above would be the likes of Walsh, Davidson, Garner, Lindwall, Trueman, Pollock (Shaun) etc Holding meets all of my criteria but it just doesn't feel right putting him in the top 10 considering he never played a single test vs Pakistan.

 

[Prince EWS]

Would be interested in seeing your top 10/12

McGrath
Marshall
Hadlee
Ambrose
Imran
Steyn
Davidson
Wasim
Garner
Donald

Barnes not considered because of doubts over whether he qualified as a seamer or not. Cummins not considered because he's still playing, but I reckon he'll probably make it towards the bottom of this list.

I rate Walsh higher than most because I value longevity so highly but I think I've got him outside the top ten now.

Honourable mention to Hoggard.