3rd Test at Headingley, Leeds

[trundler]

Tbf to him, Bird was greeting talked up around 8 years ago as potentially being the best Aussie quick of this generation. Not just by me, but by many on here.

Now Bird isn't that good but he's genuinely got the shaft being sent home while we play Siddle. He'd do Siddle's job while actually taking wickets.

Hilfenhaus was genuinely good for a while there. Anderson wouldn't have had a much better career for Australia were he born here. 135 kph swing bowlers don't get long international careers in Australia.

It's more fun to misrepresent people so I'll stick to that, thanks

 

[the big bambino]

135 kph swing bowlers don't get long international careers in Australia.

We've had McGrath, Clark, Reiffel, Fleming, Alderman, Siddle, Kaspa, Bichel, Reid, Hilf who've all had good to excellent careers. Granted not all are swing bowlers but most would be panting heavily getting to 135 clicks. I think if Anderson was an Aussie he'd have still gotten plenty of tours to England, NZ, SA for example as well as games here against certain opponents. Realistically could have had an Alderman like career for us.

 

[trundler]

Other than McGrath, the rest would still go down as what ifs wouldn't they? Fleming and Alderman especially. Not the most fulfilled careers.

 

[the big bambino]

Other than McGrath, the rest would still go down as what ifs wouldn't they? Fleming and Alderman especially. Not the most fulfilled careers.

True to an extent I guess. Some went down because of injury (thinking mainly Reid and Flem here). Others had long fc careers though and performed well enough and long enough to be always considered for the test team. So they were always around and successful but when you're up against blokes like Lee and Gillespie then you miss out. However if they were picked AND as long as we had one express bowler, I'd be happy with that kind of attack.

 

[mr_mister]

Flem at least had high profile moments at the business end of 2 world cups

He's a player that I'm always surprised to see played so little cricket

 

[Spark]

Tbf to him, Bird was greeting talked up around 8 years ago as potentially being the best Aussie quick of this generation. Not just by me, but by many on here.

Now Bird isn't that good but he's genuinely got the shaft being sent home while we play Siddle. He'd do Siddle's job while actually taking wickets.

Hilfenhaus was genuinely good for a while there. Anderson wouldn't have had a much better career for Australia were he born here. 135 kph swing bowlers don't get long international careers in Australia.

Wait whaaaat? No. The potential best Aussie quick of this generation this time ~6-8 years ago was pretty universally seen as one of Pattinson, Hazlewood or Starc.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

We've had McGrath, Clark, Reiffel, Fleming, Alderman, Siddle, Kaspa, Bichel, Reid, Hilf who've all had good to excellent careers. Granted not all are swing bowlers but most would be panting heavily getting to 135 clicks. I think if Anderson was an Aussie he'd have still gotten plenty of tours to England, NZ, SA for example as well as games here against certain opponents. Realistically could have had an Alderman like career for us.

Can't really agree at all with that one

McGrath: Second half of his career definitely. Sharper than many realised in the early days
Clark: Yeah, for the most part
Reiffel: Was lively enough, not express but certainly not a medium pacer
Fleming: Pretty much, relied more on swing than a lot of his contemporaries
Alderman: Yeah. Especially post shoulder injury
Siddle: Nope, not in his best years he wasn't
Kasprowicz: At his peak he certainly wasn't sluggish
Bichel: Nope, could definitely get up to 140 when bowling well
Reid: Fair enough, not rapid but could be a nightmare with all that bounce he got
Hilfy: Mostly so, except that India series a few years back

Considering the top three wicket takers were Copes Bird and Boland last season, I certainly don't think Shield bowlers were sluggish back then

 

[the big bambino]

I think you're arguing the exception not the norm. Yes, a few, were capable of hitting 140 every now and then. Some like Siddle had a brief moment of speed but generally all are known as fast medium - around the 130 - 139 mark.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

I think you're arguing the exception not the norm. Yes, a few, were capable of hitting 140 every now and then. Some like Siddle had a brief moment of speed but generally all are known as fast medium - around the 130 - 139 mark.

I am not saying any were necessarily ever express, but absolutely and comprehensively believe the average domestic bowler of the era was faster (and generally better) than their modern day counterparts

Sorry to single him out again, but Luke Feldman is a perfect example of the problems with the Shield these days. Wobbly 120-125kph garbage yet he was taking bulk wickets. Nobody in their right mind would think he was even remotely close to international standard

 

[social]

People need to get over the thing that McGrath wasn’t that quick

Here’s an article quoting him

https://www.cricket.com.au/news/gle...ement-velocity-philander-interview/2016-11-13

Fastest recorded speed of 92mph and he felt that he was quicker than that early in his career

The guy was definitely sharp for most of his career and hit a lot of batsmen but reached the point where he was so good that he didn’t need to use pace alone to get people out

 

[morgieb]

You guys are forgetting that Anderson was genuinely sharp for a large chunk of his career. Early doors he was not slow.

This article is interesting in that the perceptions of what Australia want out of their bowlers has changed. Not too many express bowlers pre-Lee.

 

[the big bambino]

People need to get over the thing that McGrath wasn’t that quick

Here’s an article quoting him

https://www.cricket.com.au/news/gle...ement-velocity-philander-interview/2016-11-13

Fastest recorded speed of 92mph and he felt that he was quicker than that early in his career

The guy was definitely sharp for most of his career and hit a lot of batsmen but reached the point where he was so good that he didn’t need to use pace alone to get people out

Yeah but you know - he wasn't

 

[the big bambino]

I am not saying any were necessarily ever express, but absolutely and comprehensively believe the average domestic bowler of the era was faster (and generally better) than their modern day counterparts

Sorry to single him out again, but Luke Feldman is a perfect example of the problems with the Shield these days. Wobbly 120-125kph garbage yet he was taking bulk wickets. Nobody in their right mind would think he was even remotely close to international standard

You'll note I didn't include Feldman in my earlier list.

 

[social]

You guys are forgetting that Anderson was genuinely sharp for a large chunk of his career. Early doors he was not slow.

This article is interesting in that the perceptions of what Australia want out of their bowlers has changed. Not too many express bowlers pre-Lee.

Yep

Anderson bowled very quickly on his first tour to Australia

He, McDermott, Hadlee etc started their careers as tear away fast bowlers and ended up very different but still sharp

They were never Philanders

 

[Starfighter]

Yeah but you know - he wasn't

I think this 'McGrath was genuinely fast until they brought speedguns in' thing is like the 'McGrath was a swing bowler' thing I've seen on here before.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

You'll note I didn't include Feldman in my earlier list.

I know. I was citing him as an example of what is wrong with modern Sheffield Shield cricket. We really don't need that type of bowler around

 

[the big bambino]

I think this 'McGrath was genuinely fast until they brought speedguns in' thing is like the 'McGrath was a swing bowler' thing I've seen on here before.

Its weird. Anyway i nominated a speed range that generally excludes the likes of Philander or M Asif or even Feldman. Yet they are being thrown up as a counter. Not my argument and therefore not a response to it. Though I will say now that if we had a Philander or M Asif we would be mad not to value him. Fair enough is GSA's point about Feldman though I wouldn't necessarily agree. If he keeps getting selected then its because he's among the best available.

Anyway I think that is more about perceived quality than speed. I mean there are ordinary fast bowlers too. Similarly there is a great difference in class between say Philander and Feldman though they are much the same speed range. I wouldn't discount fast medium or medium bowlers here. Just that you definitely need an express bowler in your side.

 

[DriveClub]

Fast Anderson was pretty ****, he only came good when he slowed down and learnt to control his swing and bowl dry when it wasn't swinging. Unnecessary obsession with speed. Starc is not that good despite being fast

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Its weird. Anyway i nominated a speed range that generally excludes the likes of Philander or M Asif or even Feldman. Yet they are being thrown up as a counter. Not my argument and therefore not a response to it. Though I will say now that if we had a Philander or M Asif we would be mad not to value him. Fair enough is GSA's point about Feldman though I wouldn't necessarily agree. If he keeps getting selected then its because he's among the best available.

Anyway I think that is more about perceived quality than speed. I mean there are ordinary fast bowlers too. Similarly there is a great difference in class between say Philander and Feldman though they are much the same speed range. I wouldn't discount fast medium or medium bowlers here. Just that you definitely need an express bowler in your side.

I see what you say about Philander, it is possible to be test class at medium pace but such bowlers are rare. I just genuinely tend to believe Shield bowlers are not of the same skill and calibre as the were 20odd years ago, pace is part of that but definitely not the whole story.

Put it this way: Reiffel and Fleming v Tremain and Boland. The difference in pace there wouldn't be massive but I definitely know which combination out of those two I would prefer

 

[morgieb]

I see what you say about Philander, it is possible to be test class at medium pace but such bowlers are rare. I just genuinely tend to believe Shield bowlers are not of the same skill and calibre as the were 20odd years ago, pace is part of that but definitely not the whole story.

Put it this way: Reiffel and Fleming v Tremain and Boland. The difference in pace there wouldn't be massive but I definitely know which combination out of those two I would prefer

When you consider pecking orders Reiffel and Fleming seem closer to Pattinson and Siddle than anything else, though.