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2nd ODI ATXI
- Thread starter sunilz
- Start date
Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
Kallis doesn't belong in any ATG ODI discussions imo
Why not - with a SR of 39 and economy rate of 4.8 - he is still a very handy bowler --- and yet he has a batting average of 44 - as a pure batsman he might not be right up there as a reckoning force but you can still adjust him as a pretty handy tool among other faster scoring guys, in conjunction with Andrew Symonds he will be a great fifth bowling option along with a gritty batting just in case the upper order collapses, I am playing him at 4 or fifth down that's depending upon what ----- finally ---- it's an eleven of players which I think would not many people include in their first (that's the main part of excercise) and yet can give a solid fight to the first one.
TheJediBrah
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Literally 2 and 3 posts before yours m8. Nearly better off going in with only 10 men in your side than Kallis
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
A bit harsh it may be, but Kallis is just the kind of player you don't want in an ATG ODI team. His runs at the top of the order makes the batting depth of the line up irrelevant, as he consumes all those deliveries which players down the order would have utilized to score more runs. As Stephen said, 2007 WC match is a great example of how he lets the opposition check the run flow, build pressure and takes the game to a point where someone in his team has to play a blinder to get the score anywhere near the opposition. 2002 Champions Trophy match between India and SA is another example. Gibbs was gunning it at the other end, and RRR was only 5 an over. Gibbs got injured, Kallis who was well settled by then continued to play an insipid innings finally getting out once the match was effectively over.
As a 5th bowler in ATG context, he is barely decent. Neither a run choker nor a prolific wicket taker.
Kallis makes the collective strength of the other 10 players irrelevant by diminishing the opportunities they get to make an impact. Klusener and Pollock were superior to him as ODI cricketers and don't think it is debatable.
Having said this, Kallis adds great value to a weak team. His consistent 80 of 110 keeps them in the park for the full length of the match, which they wouldn't have otherwise.
As a 5th bowler in ATG context, he is barely decent. Neither a run choker nor a prolific wicket taker.
Kallis makes the collective strength of the other 10 players irrelevant by diminishing the opportunities they get to make an impact. Klusener and Pollock were superior to him as ODI cricketers and don't think it is debatable.
Having said this, Kallis adds great value to a weak team. His consistent 80 of 110 keeps them in the park for the full length of the match, which they wouldn't have otherwise.
This is a bit harsh on Kallis. He would add a bit of value batting at 11, possibly as high as 10 if the tail was weak.
Flem274*
123/5
For most of ODI history, 80 (110) is a solid knock.
Kallis is not good enough to make the top few ODI ATG XIs, but as usual a pile of non-South Africans are determined to pretend he was the One Great Obstacle to every game they ever lost.
Kallis played in the same era as more than aggressive enough openers for their time like Mark Waugh and Nathan Astle yet has a similar strike rate to both, and a much better average.
He's an excellent choice for a #3 provided someone else in the top 4 can go for it, and that's the structure everyone good employs anyway. His bowling is also solid, averaging 31 with an economy rate in the 4s.
I watched the guy play. I was never happy to see him in if I wanted the opposition to win.
He wasn't even the slowest batsman in his own team. Boeata ****ing Dippenaar played 107 ODIs for a strike rate in the 60s.
And before someone brings up modern players, let's not pretend Kallis wouldn't score faster if he was born ten years younger and played today. He's a powerful man, he'd ****ing smoke it miles.
Kallis is a pretty easy pick for the South African ATG ODI side and that team would see off most others.
Kallis is not good enough to make the top few ODI ATG XIs, but as usual a pile of non-South Africans are determined to pretend he was the One Great Obstacle to every game they ever lost.
Kallis played in the same era as more than aggressive enough openers for their time like Mark Waugh and Nathan Astle yet has a similar strike rate to both, and a much better average.
He's an excellent choice for a #3 provided someone else in the top 4 can go for it, and that's the structure everyone good employs anyway. His bowling is also solid, averaging 31 with an economy rate in the 4s.
I watched the guy play. I was never happy to see him in if I wanted the opposition to win.
He wasn't even the slowest batsman in his own team. Boeata ****ing Dippenaar played 107 ODIs for a strike rate in the 60s.
And before someone brings up modern players, let's not pretend Kallis wouldn't score faster if he was born ten years younger and played today. He's a powerful man, he'd ****ing smoke it miles.
Kallis is a pretty easy pick for the South African ATG ODI side and that team would see off most others.
TheJediBrah
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I was delighted every second he batted against Aus in an ODI. Wished we never got him out.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Its not as simple as looking at pure SR though. He was often very fast in certain innings, pitches and against certain attacks, but was very limited rest of the time. I mean, is his SR really the same as Astle and Mark Waugh during the time they all played international cricket?
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
Somehow Kallis won 32 MoM awards. Screw ATG XIs, but he was damn effective ODI batsman.
stats.espncricinfo.com
Records | One-Day Internationals | Individual records (captains, players, umpires) | Most player-of-the-match awards | ESPNcricinfo.com
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Pap Finn Keighl
International Debutant
Fixed.
Pap Finn Keighl
International Debutant
Dravid was only slightly better ODI batsman..
Yet many rate him as a very good ODI batsman. Don't know why. Worst WC top scorer ever.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Too slow
Spark
Global Moderator
MoMs in practice are really really really stupid though, and basically are just handed by default to whichever batsman scored the most on the winning side or, more rarely, a bowler who took a whole bunch of wickets on the winning side if the game was lower-scoring. They almost never are given on the basis of who actually had the biggest impact on a game and are really just a distorted, less useful translation of a cricketer's raw "dumb" statistics anyway.Somehow Kallis won 32 MoM awards. Screw ATG XIs, but he was damn effective ODI batsman.
Records | One-Day Internationals | Individual records (captains, players, umpires) | Most player-of-the-match awards | ESPNcricinfo.com
Statsguru, ESPNCricinfo's searchable cricket statistics database
OverratedSanity
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Waugh and kallis's careers in the same era? Waugh debuted 8 years before kallis did and still has a Sr 4 runs higher. That despite the second half of kallis's career being in the t20era. They're not remotely comparable. In the 6 years where their careers did overlap, Waugh was 6 runs faster and averaged pretty much exactly the same.
Teja.
Global Moderator
I remember Maugh being a pretty aggressive batsmen for the 90s so I verified JK's SR during Waugh's career and Kallis has a SR of 69 compared to Waugh's 76 with an average 3 higher. Considering the spectrum of total scores and the fact the SRs was lower back then, that's a very significant difference in SR. Also, the difference in batting position and Waugh playing in the early 90s as well more than explains the slight difference in average. Kallis's SR increased into the 00s.
Also worth noting that Waugh was absolute dynamite in general in World Cups and his SR in them is significantly better despite playing in much lower scoring WCs on average. Kallis had some very slow World cups early on and only has a half ok SR in his last 2 WCs when everyone also who was a decent batsman was scoring much quicker anyway.
Kallis's SR in his first 3 world cups when batting hasn't quite exploded leaves a lot to be desired:
Waugh:
Overall, Waugh was a far more explosive batsman who delivered more consistently in crucial matches IMO. Consider the 1996 WC where Waugh was Australia's best batsman nearly every match and had one of the greatest world cups ever. Kallis never came close to something like that even in that one decent WC he had in 2006/07.
TheJediBrah
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Well said. Waugh's career finished (2002) pretty much exactly on the precipice of when ODI scoring started to skyrocket, whereas Kallis played through a lot of it and still had a lower SR.
During Waugh's career a SR of 75 was very good
Teja.
Global Moderator
Waugh's SR of 77 which is excellent doesn't really give an indication of how aggressive a batsman he could consistently be. As mentioned above, he had a SR of 100 and 86 in the first 2 WCs of the 90s. Kallis could hardly manage a SR of 65 in the 2 WCs he played in the 90s.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
Don't think so. MoMs go to the best performer in the game on either side, with heavy bias (more than justified) towards winning team and towards batting. But within winning side, it rarely goes to anyone other than the most influential player in the game.