subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Captaincy to me is one differentiator.
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Imran vs hadlee
- Thread starter govinda indian fan
- Start date
govinda indian fan
State Captain
Dude calm down. All of us agree imran is atg bowler and second greatest all rounder but he was no saint and also agree india has biased umpires too but not bad has shakoor rana and that 82 series did have some dodgy stuff even wisden reported it in their columm
govinda indian fan
State Captain
My top ten
Bradman
Sobers
Warne
Imran
Marshall
Hadlee
Sachin
Kallis
Murali
Gilly
Bradman
Sobers
Warne
Imran
Marshall
Hadlee
Sachin
Kallis
Murali
Gilly
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Not disputing that.
Migara
International Coach
If we consider ODIs as well,
Sangakkara as te whole package of batting, keeping and captaincy trumps Warne, Murali or Sachin.
Coronis
Hall of Fame Member
Have you come back from a posting hiatus recently or am I just noticing you a lot more because you’re particularly on fire lately?
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Ha, thank you for noticing. I tend to go through phases where I'll post a lot for a while and then not at all for a long time. I only just in recent weeks came back to posting regularly, having been largely absent for well over a year - I think I may have missed the entirety of 2024.
Coronis
Hall of Fame Member
Quite glad to have you back! Hope 2024 was good to you.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
I have him kinda tied for 5th, definitely elite and probably the most underrated cricketer
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
I think so as well, but if Hammond is ahead of Kallis, why is Imran ahead of Hadlee.
Because the argument for both is the same, weighting of primary supercedes secondary.
And the bowling all rounders are ahead of the bowlers, but Hobbs and Sachin are still ahead of Hammond and Kallis.
The inconsistencies are wild.
Anyways, beginning to agree with Coronis that it's a fool's errand to compare bowlers and batsmen and when you throw in all rounders it just becomes almost impossible.
Anyways, here goes.
Bradman
Sobers
Marshall
Hobbs
McGrath
Hadlee
Tendulkar
Richards
Then there's Warne, Imran, Hammond, Muralitharan, Lara, Smith, Steyn, Ambrose, Kallis and Hutton that, all prerentions aside, are all top 10 talents. And even as I wrote that list I've forgotten Gilchrist and a couple more.
That is likely the order though.
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
How many times does it have to be explained to you?
Most here don't rate Imran like he has a notable gulf with the other top tier pacers like you do, they see the others as slightly but clearly ahead. There are like three to four places separating Hadlee and Imran.
And they generally rate his batting slightly better than Kallis' bowling.
And of course Imran is rated here solidly as the third best cricketer and 2nd best AR after Sobers.
You may want to change these views on CW but don't pretend that they don't exist and act surprised.
Last edited:
Thala_0710
State Captain
Imo the whole tier you mentioned from (Hobbs to Viv) and I would add Imran, Kallis and Hammond to that maybe, are basically in 1 big tier and there is no major difference imo amongst any of those ATGs. Ordering them is basically personal preference 90% of the time and if someone basically flipped your list and placed Imran, Viv or Sachin at the top, it wouldn't look too out of place.
It's nitpicking at a level not practically possible and one can give any argument to support themselves, but it's basically preference/your view of the game, which is fine really tbh.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
First off, adjust your tone, you don't have to explain anything to me. The lists lacks consistency.
I know you love to jump to Kallis, but read what I said.
And I'm glad we're using CW consensus, makes things easier.
Hammond over Kallis is argued on the basis that even though Kallis is the better all rounder, Hammond is the better bat and that takes prescedence in weighting.for primary.
Consistency would dictate the same should take prescedence for Hadlee over Imran.
Hammond is rated 10th in batting and Kallis 14th. Hadlee is 3rd and in the GOAT discussion and Imran 8th (that's 5 spots btw).
Take away the names and it's reversed, Imran being ahead is purely personality based, @Johan is the only one who listed that was consistent in that.
And Imran and Hammond are essentially the same player in somewhat reverse.
So if Imran, the 8th rated bowler is ahead of the 7 bowlers rated ahead of him based on batting, why isn't Hammond, the 10th best batsman (more batters than bowlers and all that you normally say), not ahead of Tendulkar and Hobbs as well. You say he's ahead of Kallis, and was the greatest ever slip and more than good enough to fill the role of a 5th or even 4th bowler.
If we're doing the cumulative value thing, the same way we do with bowling all rounders, there's no way Sachin or Hobbs is rated ahead of Kallis or Hammond because there's no way they add or bring more value to a team.
Even look at let's say Sachin and Viv, or Sunny and Chappell. I'll go back to the @Johan well for this. He and I basically agree that Sachin and Viv are neck and neck for 3rd place behind Hobbs, non minnow production is practically identical and Viv didn't have the benefit of a flat era. Both were nothing more than rotation bowlers, but Viv was one of the greatest ever slip and overall fielders in history. But while everyone tells me I can't have Pigeon over Paddles, there's no recognition of the added value Viv brought to his team, it's just as much. The same is true with the comparison between Sunny and Chappell, both in that next tier of batters and basically identical in their eras, one again though was one of the greatest slips in history and accounted for so many wickets for his bowlers. The value of him as a cricketer just jumps past Sunny.
Player rankings in primary disciplines are pretty accurate here I believe, a few things were different from the last poll, but I understand. But the cricketer ones have devolved into personalities and favorites, or basically, just names.
And I know you'll jump straight to it's about picking on Imran, it has nothing to do with him, philosophically the entire way it's done is inconsistent, and as you indicated, behooves you to keep it this way, but ro me it doesn't make any sense.
Show me impact and what wins games.
I'll get back to you and your Imran's batting vs Kallis's bowling another time. I'm going to bed.
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You abuse me post and post, don't lecture me on tone man.
I am only talking about CW opinion because you were addressing CW opinion. It's not an authority for me.
Anyways, when we compare Hadlee and Imran, we are comparing them as pacers and then secondary bats. Hadlee is the 3rd best pacer, Imran the 6th best pacer according to CW (we don't need to include Murali and Warne in that ranking as they aren't pacers). It's a smaller gap.
And the gap in secondary is larger. And Imran was captain.
Coronis
Hall of Fame Member
Not to say whether I agree or disagree but just looking at 3rd-6th vs say 10th-14th (what the Hammond-Kallis rankings were) doesn’t mean either gap is larger or smaller.
Thala_0710
State Captain
Yeah, if anything, generally the gap in these cases actually comes down in most cases a bit as you go further down the list. At the, top there are further chances of outliers.
Coronis
Hall of Fame Member
Fun thing I noticed about those top batsmen rankings - whilst positions did change between 2022 and 2024, we had the same 20 players in the top 20 both times. Pretty consensus list there!
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Sure. My general sense here though is Imran is more rated as a pacer than Kallis as a bat. Maybe using rankings isn't the best way to determine that. I don't think Kyear will argue with that. Which is why the Hammond Kallis vs Hadlee Imran comparison is not 1:1 as he suggests.
Migara
International Coach
Imran is right there at the top with Sobers.
Murali is easily a bigger player in tests than Richards or Tendulkar, because he ts the no 1, spinner and because he is a bowler, and has way less substitutes as a result.
Sobers, Imran, Bradman, Hadlee, Kallis, Gilchrist, Sangakkara, Marshall, McGrath, and Murali would be my top 10
Thala_0710
State Captain
Would Root have broken into it by the next time we do it?