Which players would be locks in every OTHER country’s ATG XI?

[subshakerz]

Yes.

The funny thing is that you like to believe that I'm an Imran hater and for the rest of the forum he's an automatic choice, and that's never been the case. He and Viv are always the last and tightest inclusions into the team, well along with Warne last time. Infact they were the only three rightly disputed positions.

The fact that you still believe it's some hatred and not the fact that I just think the best attack is better and every poll, question and related conversation always comes back to Steyn was better and that's good enough for me, is on you.

Address this then.

Just to hammer this home, @kyear2 actually rates Kallis behind Ponting, but has no problem putting Kallis in the Aus side over Ponting for his bowling without worrying about a loss in specialist ability.

When another poster dares to do use the same logic in selecting Imran, suddenly he cares about a loss in specialist ability.

 

[kyear2]

Just to hammer this home, @kyear2 actually rates Kallis behind Ponting, but has no problem putting Kallis in the Aus side over Ponting for his bowling without worrying about a loss in specialist ability.

When another poster dares to do use the same logic in selecting Imran, suddenly he cares about a loss in specialist ability.

Bias doesn't come clearer than this.

I have Ponting and Kallis equal with the preference being sr to take Ponting slightly ahead. I've said this countless times, you just ignore it. Kallis was actually more productive than Posting, having to actually face Punter's attacks and okay on tougher home pitches.

Imran is significantly behind the top 3, and in every head to head between him and Steyn (I mentioned all 3 last time) Steyn eviscerates him. It's not close. There's an appreciable drop off, while Kallis is more productive, just slower and active than Kallis.

This argument btw is about making an Aus XI, one that Imran would similarly make over whoever the 3rd bowler would be.

The argument at hand was about Miller, nothing to do with Imran, but an even much worse example of forcing in all rounders where the value isn't there.

You're being Imran and the AT team into the argument and Kallis doesn't make that either, because he's not close to that top tier either for primary skills.

The no comparison for the two arguments you're making.

 

[subshakerz]

I have Ponting and Kallis equal with the preference being sr to take Ponting slightly ahead. I've said this countless times, you just ignore it. Kallis was actually more productive than Posting, having to actually face Punter's attacks and okay on tougher home pitches.

Imran is significantly behind the top 3, and in every head to head between him and Steyn (I mentioned all 3 last time) Steyn eviscerates him. It's not close. There's an appreciable drop off, while Kallis is more productive, just slower and active than Kallis.

You ranked Ponting two places ahead of Kallis but are willing to have Kallis in your side for his bowling. Ponting also comfortably beats Kallis in CW polls.

Imran is basically two places for CW behind Steyn in pacers yet you raise a fit over including him in an XI for his batting.

Trying to pretend this isn't a contradiction is putting yourself into pretzels. Just accept that CW doesn't see the differences between ATG pacers the way you do and there isn't a dropoff.

 

[Coronis]

I have Ponting and Kallis equal with the preference being sr to take Ponting slightly ahead. I've said this countless times, you just ignore it. Kallis was actually more productive than Posting, having to actually face Punter's attacks and okay on tougher home pitches.

Imran is significantly behind the top 3, and in every head to head between him and Steyn (I mentioned all 3 last time) Steyn eviscerates him. It's not close. There's an appreciable drop off, while Kallis is more productive, just slower and active than Kallis.

This argument btw is about making an Aus XI, one that Imran would similarly make over whoever the 3rd bowler would be.

The argument at hand was about Miller, nothing to do with Imran, but an even much worse example of forcing in all rounders where the value isn't there.

You're being Imran and the AT team into the argument and Kallis doesn't make that either, because he's not close to that top tier either for primary skills.

The no comparison for the two arguments you're making.

Just okay?

 

[kyear2]

Address this then.

I did earlier. I've told you, if I saw Imran in the same light you do, top 4 fast bowler and test standard batsman, he would be a Sobers level automatic for me and the forum. But more than half the forum doesn't seem him that way either.

He ranks a consistency 8th among bowlers and he's often one of the toughest competitions to even make the ATG selections while about 6 of them are all but unanimous.

You think my take is personal some how, when I first joined to forum him and Lillee easily made my team, and I wondered why Imran wasn't seen on the level of Sobers and Bradman, but I watched, read and observed for myself and it became glaring obvious as to why.

I still think he's an ATG around top 10 player and an absolute gun, but he's not in that top tier for me. Hadlee for me is a clearly superior over-all player and most would disagree with that, but he was clearly the better and more effective bowler.

And yes, slip fielding is important, just as important as any other secondary skills, if that hasn't been picked up as yet, you've never watched a game of cricket in your life.

 

[Socerer 01]

And yes, slip fielding is important, just as important as any other secondary skills, if that hasn't been picked up as yet, you've never watched a game of cricket in your life.

 

[subshakerz]

I did earlier. I've told you, if I saw Imran in the same light you do, top 4 fast bowler and test standard batsman, he would be a Sobers level automatic for me and the forum. But more than half the forum doesn't seem him that way either.

Pretty sure this forum consistently ranks Imran the 3rd greatest cricketer ever.

He ranks a consistency 8th among bowlers and he's often one of the toughest competitions to even make the ATG selections while about 6 of them are all but unanimous.

How disingenuous. You know Imrans competition in the ATG XI is among pacers like Steyn who CW ranks a couple of places ahead. Putting him ahead because of batting is perfectly reasonable yet you insist on making this an issue.

Imran pretty comfortably makes most ATG XIs on this board too.

You think my take is personal some how, when I first joined to forum him and Lillee easily made my team, and I wondered why Imran wasn't seen on the level of Sobers and Bradman, but I watched, read and observed for myself and it became glaring obvious as to why.

Because you think Imran invented ball tampering.

I still think he's an ATG around top 10 player and an absolute gun, but he's not in that top tier for me. Hadlee for me is a clearly superior over-all player and most would disagree with that, but he was clearly the better and more effective bowler.

You also believe Hadlee vs McGrath as cricketers is a tossup so it's clear you disregard lower order runs entirely.

And yes, slip fielding is important, just as important as any other secondary skills, if that hasn't been picked up as yet, you've never watched a game of cricket in your life.

You still calculate elite slip fielding in terms of runs?

 

[Bolo.]

Aside from SR, will averages be affected too?

Will average team scores be the same in an ATG scenario, more or less?

Bowlers will average more than their career averages. Bats less. This is pretty clear.

Average team score is conjecture. I think maybe a little less typically, but you will see some huge scores in batting conditions, particularly against the weaker bowling lineups.

 

[subshakerz]

Bowlers will average more than their career averages. Bats less. This is pretty clear.

Average team score is conjecture. I think maybe a little less typically, but you will see some huge scores in batting conditions, particularly against the weaker bowling lineups.

So bowlers are giving more runs per wicket.

Yet batsmen are also magically scoring less.

Yet team scores aren't really affected.

Right....

 

[Coronis]

Imran pretty comfortably makes most ATG XIs on this board too.

Does he?

 

[Bolo.]

So bowlers are giving more runs per wicket.

Yet batsmen are also magically scoring less.

Yet team scores aren't really affected.

Right....

Are you misunderstanding this on purpose?

A bowler averages 20 against a typical team. They average 25 against a great one.

A bat averages 50 against a typical team. They average 40 against a great one.

Team score does not change despite both their averages getting worse- you have removed the worse players who drag team averages both up and down.

 

[subshakerz]

Does he?

From what I have seen. I don't mind being corrected.

 

[capt_Luffy]

So bowlers are giving more runs per wicket.

Yet batsmen are also magically scoring less.

Yet team scores aren't really affected.

Right....

I mean, kinda. Most of both bowlers and batsmen, especially top tier, have their career averages fairly boosted by weaker teams. Remove those, and it's really tough to say exactly what will happen. Bowlers might struggle individually but will thrive as a collective, while the scores might be higher as instead of 1 Or 2 ATG batsmen, each team has 5 or 6.

 

[capt_Luffy]

From what I have seen. I don't mind being corrected.

It's really only around 50-60%, but I don't think that's enough ground to dismiss him as the 4th greatest cricketer of all time. I mean, Gilly almost makes all the teams, but I don't think many people will call him better than Kallis Or Imran, two people who doesn't.

 

[subshakerz]

Are you misunderstanding this on purpose?

A bowler averages 20 against a typical team. They average 25 against a great one.

A bat averages 50 against a typical team. They average 40 against a great one.

Team score does not change despite both their averages getting worse- you have removed the worse players who drag team averages both up and down.

What makes you so confident the average hits between bats and bowlers will be so commensurate?

 

[Coronis]

From what I have seen. I don't mind being corrected.

I’m pretty sure the majority seem to have a make up of 6 batsmen, Gilchrist, Marshall + McGrath, Warne/Murali and then the 3rd pacer varies between Hadlee, Steyn, Imran, Wasim. At least that’s what I recall. I wouldn’t say any of those 4 have a majority.

 

[subshakerz]

I mean, kinda. Most of both bowlers and batsmen, especially top tier, have their career averages fairly boosted by weaker teams. Remove those, and it's really tough to say exactly what will happen. Bowlers might struggle individually but will thrive as a collective, while the scores might be higher as instead of 1 Or 2 ATG batsmen, each team has 5 or 6.

I think that is my point. The group advantage for bowlers as a pack outweighs the advantage for bats in an ultra strong lineup. I don't see most of the lineup averaging 40 in a series against such consistently hostile bowling.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think that is my point. The group advantage for bowlers as a pack outweighs the advantage for bats in an ultra strong lineup. I don't see most of the lineup averaging 40 in a series against such consistently hostile bowling.

I also don't really and it might be slightly lower scoring. But my point is on average one team really have 1 or at most 2 ATG+ATVG batsmen. Here, most teams have 5 to 6. So if batsmen individually struggles more, I think as a collective (i.e., if everyone scores around 30-40, unlike carrying a bunch of mediocre bats), they will do just fine.

 

[Bolo.]

What makes you so confident the average hits between bats and bowlers will be so commensurate?

If you mean in general terms, cos bowling and batting averages approximately match.

If you mean specifically, as I said, anything beyond them both taking a hit is conjecture. Bowlers and bats both get advantages and disadvantages from strong teammates. These mirror each other to some extent. Both miss opportunities to bat and bowl at the easiest times. Both jobs are made easier in terms of bowlers tiring. Bats will typically see less of the new ball in a stronger lineup. Bowlers will have to bowl at settled bats less often.

 

[subshakerz]

I also don't really and it might be slightly lower scoring. But my point is on average one team really have 1 or at most 2 ATG+ATVG batsmen. Here, most teams have 5 to 6. So if batsmen individually struggles more, I think as a collective (i.e., if everyone scores around 30-40, unlike carrying a bunch of mediocre bats), they will do just fine.

I can see that. A more distributed spread of lesser scores with a general tendency towards slightly lower totals.