South Africa - most over-rated team?

[wpdavid]

Strange that Kallis didn't fancy the job.

 

[wpdavid]

Funny thing is Brearley used to be a fairly decent batsmen scoring a triple century for the MCC in pakistan, but having taken two years out of cricket for his career (only coming back to middlesex in 1970) and having to start his test career at 34 years old meant he was never going to be particularly good at test level.

And funnily enough he was picked by Tony Grieg for the WI series in 1976 as a pure batsmen.

Yup, and then toured India under Greig too. Didn't score many runs though. You have to reckon that the batting cupboard was pretty bare in 1976.

 

[a10khan]

Assuming full strength, I believe they are.

England had a disastrous tour of Pak, OK of India and again a bad test series against SL @home. I dont think England is 'all that', their batting looks visibly shaky and mostly its all down to Peiterson n Tresco.

As for SA, I think they have a solid roster. We shdn't critique their recent stats too much because most of their tests were against Australia.

 

[Craig]

Strange that Kallis didn't fancy the job.

Once read a book about the late Hansie Cronje (it was published before his tragic death, but after he was banned for match fixing) and they talked about Kallis, and it said he wasn't really the captaincy type, he seemed more focused on his game especially when he was younger to even worry about being captain. I can't remember it all since it has been about 4 years since I read it.

 

[Goughy]

Mind you I don't think Goughy was being entirely serious, and neither was I really.

Actually I was.

McKenzie is definately worth a place in the side. He may not look like it based on Test average but he is a fine batsman.

My SA batting Line-up

Smith
Gibbs
Rudolph
Kallis
Amla
McKenzie
De Villiers
Pollock
+ 3 bowlers

There is no place for Prince or Dippenaar, mainly based on the fact I do not think they are good enough. Though it could be argued that Rudolph was lucky to be included. Also Boucher is not included due to my continued belief that playing 2 keepers is the quickest way to screw up a batting line-up and weaken the team.

 

[Craig]

Amla looks a fine batsman due to his FC record, but I have doubts over him at Test level. My gut instinct tells me that I don't think he is made for it at Test level.

Would you play a spinner as well? If so, who?

 

[Goughy]

Amla has a technique that looks dodgy but works for him. I think he will go on to have a successfull test career. He is 10 times the player Prince is who has been given every opportunity at various levels over a long period purely for political reasons.

As for a spinner, I would not play one. Smith can help out if needed. THere is just noone worth putting in at the moment. If I had to select one I would pick Thandi. He may not be ready but he really excites me and given the lack of competition he deserves the nod.

 

[wpdavid]

Amla has a technique that looks dodgy but works for him. I think he will go on to have a successfull test career. He is 10 times the player Prince is who has been given every opportunity at various levels over a long period purely for political reasons.

As for a spinner, I would not play one. Smith can help out if needed. THere is just noone worth putting in at the moment. If I had to select one I would pick Thandi. He may not be ready but he really excites me and given the lack of competition he deserves the nod.

Doesn't Amla captain his domestic side, or is my ageing memory playing tricks on me?

 

[Goughy]

He used to. He gave it up to concentrate on his batting.

He should probably not have been placed under so much pressure early in his career when he was still trying to develop as a batsman but politics runs deep in South Africa and there were people who really wanted him as captain.

 

[wpdavid]

He used to. He gave it up to concentrate on his batting.

He should probably not have been placed under so much pressure early in his career when he was still trying to develop as a batsman but politics runs deep in South Africa and there were people who really wanted him as captain.

Oh right. I suppose politics is bound to play a part for years to come unless we pretend that everything before majority rule didn't happen. Not that I was seriously suggesting that Amla should be in the frame to replace Smith in the forseeable future, for all sorts of reasons. Mind you, he's probably got more chance of captaining SA than a devout Moslem would do of captaining England in the current climate.

 

[Craig]

Amla has a technique that looks dodgy but works for him. I think he will go on to have a successfull test career. He is 10 times the player Prince is who has been given every opportunity at various levels over a long period purely for political reasons.

I would agree mostly about Prince. Until the Sydney Test, really I thought he did not deserve to even be in the team, mainly by default that he played at The WACA with the injury to Kallis and then Kemp being ruled out for the last two Tests with his shoulder injury.

To be fair to Prince, he has played some good innings since the Sydney Test were he made his breakthrough ton (and was out harshly LBW), on Australia's return tour in the final Test and at least one or two two against in the series against New Zealand.

As for Neil McKenzie, I've always been a fan, and is certaintly one of the best players of sheer pace bowling I have seen and is a fine player of the short ball. I guess that came from his father Kevin (who never wore a helmet IIRC?). And I have never understood why he has underachieved at Test level, I guess confidence and his supersititions I guess could be a factor.

As for a spinner, I would not play one. Smith can help out if needed. THere is just noone worth putting in at the moment. If I had to select one I would pick Thandi. He may not be ready but he really excites me and given the lack of competition he deserves the nod.

That's interesting, because without a spinner (well not a specialist and Smith isn't one), South Africa doesn't really have any variety i nthe attack, the bowlers are all similar, except maybe Ntini with his geniune pace, Pollack is medium fast now, Nel is really fast medium, and Kallas I guess is medium fast, but is a shadow of his former self as a bowler. But they are all right arm bowlers, too bad there isn't a geniuely good left-armer around (the last one they did have was Willoughby but he was one of the worst I have seen)?

 

[TT Boy]

Neil McKenzie might have improved greatly as a player since he last played for South Africa but he is still a particularly bad player of spin (his in good company of course, half of the South African line up are pretty much bunnies against 'good' spin bowling) thus the tour to Sri Lanka would not be the best reintroduction for Neil.

Though realistically it is fair to say, McKenzie test career is pretty much dead in the water but at least his still knocking on the door unlike the Martin van Jaarsveld’s of this world. Who gets dropped, bemoans the supposed politics regarding his axing and ****s off too Kent. McKenzie does have a good chance of securing a one day place though, Justin Kemp is on borrowed time, Rudolph and Prince are pretty much hapless and AB for all his promise has for some strange reason not taken to the one day game just yet.

 

[TT Boy]

Also I would agree with Goughy in regard to the use of a spinner, if he is not good enough than he should not play. To the embarrassment of Nicky Boje, captain Smith looked a far more potent bowler than him and at least Smith has something over Boje, he can turn a cricket ball.

 

[Craig]

Neil McKenzie might have improved greatly as a player since he last played for South Africa but he is still a particularly bad player of spin (his in good company of course, half of the South African line up are pretty much bunnies against 'good' spin bowling) thus the tour to Sri Lanka would not be the best reintroduction for Neil.

Though realistically it is fair to say, McKenzie test career is pretty much dead in the water but at least his still knocking on the door unlike the Martin van Jaarsveld’s of this world. Who gets dropped, bemoans the supposed politics regarding his axing and ****s off too Kent. McKenzie does have a good chance of securing a one day place though, Justin Kemp is on borrowed time, Rudolph and Prince are pretty much hapless and AB for all his promise has for some strange reason not taken to the one day game just yet.

Really? Thought McKenzie had turned himself into guite a decent player of spin compared to his younger days.

 

[Autobahn]

Amla will probably get a lot of caps simply because of the fact he looks very comfortable against spin which the saffers need.

 

[Xuhaib]

I get to see a a lot of SA domestic cricket and out of all the young batsmen Duminy looks the most promising would not be surprised to see him get a test cap this summer.

Amla looks scrappy but some how ends up with the runs.

 

[tooextracool]

Thats a big assumption, considering that they are rarely at full strength. You can only judge the team that goes out onto the field....

The England team consists of Mahmood and Plunket and all the others, as they are the ones trotting out on the field. It does not include Vaughn and Jones, because they aren't playing.

You can't judge a team on only their best day....it has to be what they do day in and day out.....

And day in and day out, England have been slipping fast since the Ashes.

or maybe they were slipping fast before the Ashes? The Ashes clouded everyone's opinions IMO. What really happened during the Ashes was a sequence of fortunate events that all coincidentally happened around the same time to save England. Simon Jones and Flintoff put in the series of their lives, Mcgrath was either not playing or half fit for 4 test matches, Gillespie & Kaspa lost form completely, England won the toss for most of the test matches(and Ponting assisted with one of them). and despite all of that they barely scraped thro an Ashes victory. Forget about what happened before the Ashes, IMO none of it is relevant. The side before the Ashes consisted of Butcher, Hussain/Key, Thorpe which is a much better middle order than Collingwood, Vaughan/Cook, Pietersen. When thorpe was unceremoniously dropped, how many people said who cares? I'd say that in just 2004, he won or saved at least half a dozen games for England. I think only since the Ashes have we started to see how valuable he was to our middle order.

 

[tooextracool]

Really? Thought McKenzie had turned himself into guite a decent player of spin compared to his younger days.

Has he really? There was never any doubt that he was a fine player of pace bowling, it was always his technique against spin that kept him down. Might very well be worth another shot if that were the case.

 

[Goughy]

I get to see a a lot of SA domestic cricket and out of all the young batsmen Duminy looks the most promising would not be surprised to see him get a test cap this summer.

Amla looks scrappy but some how ends up with the runs.

You mention the reasons why I would put Amla far ahead of Duminy and why I think Duminy is a long way from a test cap (Im not saying he wont get one but if he des it is for reasons other than cricket).

Amla has the temperament to succeed. Duminy looks great but is not a consistent player and probably does not have close to what it takes mentally to make it as a Test player.

Duminy can be destructive, but more important at Test level is to play a couple (maybe 3-4) shots well and keep it tight in other areas. Duminy is prone to too many mistakes and I do not think is capable of averaging over 35 during a long test career.

The reason Duminy looks so good is also he main weakness. He is exciting but he has to reign himself in. It would be easy to say that he can learn that with experience, but good decision making is part of a players character and cannot easily be taught.

 

[PY]

The reason Duminy looks so good is also he main weakness. He is exciting but he has to reign himself in. It would be easy to say that he can learn that with experience, but good decision making is part of a players character and cannot easily be taught.

Sounds like another chav South African we all know.