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Shane Warne vs Imran Khan

Shane Warne vs Imran Khan


  • Total voters
    28

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah I agree, that's why I'd suggest we only do 74 to 88 for Imran's bowling, he returned to bowling in 74 and more or less faded from bowling in 1988, this contains Holding's career.


65 matches, 288 wickets @ 22.94.

Holding's career

60 matches, 249 wickets @ 23.69
Yes. I think the 74 to 88 or 89 is in fact the bowling prime of Imran's career. In fact it is still longer than the careers of Lillee, Marshall and Ambrose.

Unfortunately at the time Pakistan wasn't a major cricket nation to get many tours otherwise he should have well over 100 tests played.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
You don't rate pre war players, doesn't mean everybody else has to do the same. The very lists you quote to boost Barry have Barnes in the top 15 as a cricketer.
That's very fair.

It's not just the pre war stuff though. Hobbs was pre war. You referenced Barry so I'll use him as an example.

Hobbs gets extra credit for playing in the toughest era for batsmen, as does Root and Smith somewhat do since 2017.
If I'm going that far back it has to the level of outlier against conditions like Hobbs was.

And the reference to Barry was because WSC was a bowler dominated series,.hence the batsmen who succeeded would get more credit that the bowlers, id that makes sense. It's the outliers.

And back again to Barnes, even if his average was more evenly distributed between the two countries, but it was a normal vs Australia and off the charts vs an objectively poor, minnow like SA.

So it's not just the sea era reasoning, but other factors outside of that.

Again using Barry as an example for players with exceptional circumstances, he played 4 tests, but outside of the tests I know the quality of bowlers he succeeded against comparatively we don't even have a single clip of the man bowling or the techniques he faced off against..
 

Johan

Cricketer Of The Year
And back again to Barnes, even if his average was more evenly distributed between the two countries, but it was a normal vs Australia and off the charts vs an objectively poor, minnow like SA.
Weaker than the top 2? Sure.

Minnow? Objectively not.

Barnes had the Greatest series ever in 1913 South Africa, the single greatest series any bowler had anywhere against any lineup, trying to write it off is just wrong considering Saffers were a respectable, test standard side.
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
Weaker than the top 2? Sure.

Minnow? Objectively not.

Barnes had the Greatest series ever in 1913 South Africa, the single greatest series any bowler had anywhere against any lineup, trying to write it off is just wrong considering Saffers were a respectable, test standard side.
Actually you’re thinking of 1914.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
but you'd rate 70s and 80s greats, even though Cricket objectively changed more in 1970-2025 than in 1915-1970.

Sure.
I would say that's objectively not true.

Techniques, bowling styles, pitches, equipment etc etc
 

Johan

Cricketer Of The Year
I would say that's objectively not true.

Techniques, bowling styles, pitches, equipment etc etc
equipment changed more in 1970-2025, bats got way bigger.

Bowling styles has been more or less the same since 1800s, but things like Reverse Swing came in early 80s and normalized way later.

Pitches also changed more recently, a English pitch from 1915 is more similar to a English pitch from 1965 than the 1965 pitch to today, same with Australia and the Saffers.

LBW rule change in 35, introduction of shorter formats in 71.

so yeah, objectively speaking, most developement actually happened in 1970-2025 than 1915-1970, the 1915-1970 developement is largely just vibes and a single rule.
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
equipment changed more in 1970-2025, bats got way bigger.

Bowling styles has been more or less the same since 1800s, but things like Reverse Swing came in early 80s and normalized way later.

Pitches also changed more recently, a English pitch from 1915 is more similar to a English pitch from 1965 than the 1965 pitch to today, same with Australia and the Saffers.

LBW rule change in 35, introduction of shorter formats in 71.

so yeah, objectively speaking, most developement actually happened in 1970-2025 than 1915-1970, the 1915-1970 developement is largely just vibes and a single rule.
Imo front foot no ball law is an underrated change.
 

Patience and Accuracy+Gut

State Vice-Captain
Nobody here places him as number one.
Barnes has as good as claim as any. Guys who played well onto 1930s including The Great Herbert Sutcliffe had him no.1. I mean Barnes arguably has never been topped, ever. Records+ Peer rating+ The disbelief that everyone came through one can easily make an argument for Barnes being The Goat. Peak Bedser was putting insane numbers, Barnes was better.
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
Barnes has as good as claim as any. Guys who played well onto 1930s including The Great Herbert Sutcliffe had him no.1. I mean Barnes arguably has never been topped, ever. Records+ Peer rating+ The disbelief that everyone came through one can easily make an argument for Barnes being The Goat. Peak Bedser was putting insane numbers, Barnes was better.
Peak posting
 

Johan

Cricketer Of The Year
Barnes has as good as claim as any. Guys who played well onto 1930s including The Great Herbert Sutcliffe had him no.1. I mean Barnes arguably has never been topped, ever. Records+ Peer rating+ The disbelief that everyone came through one can easily make an argument for Barnes being The Goat. Peak Bedser was putting insane numbers, Barnes was better.
Sutcliffe cooking as always.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah I agree, that's why I'd suggest we only do 74 to 88 for Imran's bowling, he returned to bowling in 74 and more or less faded from bowling in 1988, this contains Holding's career.


65 matches, 288 wickets @ 22.94.

Holding's career

60 matches, 249 wickets @ 23.69
Ok, but here's the problem according to Subz and his insistence that to be an ATG pacer you need to have over 300 wickets...

But I guess that's wanting to have it both ways as usual.

@Johan what are the away numbers juring that period for both?
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
Ok, but here's the problem according to Subz and his insistence that to be an ATG pacer you need to have over 300 wickets...

But I guess that's wanting to have it both ways as usual.

@Johan what are the away numbers juring that period for both?

Ok answering my own question.

Performances away from home from the specified period of '74 to '88 for Imran, entire career for Holding.

Also in reality, except for 3 matches vs England in '74, It's basically from '76 versus everyone for Immy

Imran
44 matches - 188 wickets - @ 25.03 - s/r 56

Whispering Death
37 matches - 163 wickets - @23.65 - s/r 51


That includes btw averages vs the individual teams of
Aus - 27
Eng - 23
Ind - 28
NZ - 25
SL - 18
WI - 25

The only place where he performed at an ATG level was SL.

So on what basis is Imran in a different tier to Michael Holding

Just for reference Imran at home during that period.

Averaged - 17 @ home

Yeah, I'll let that stand on its own.
 
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