Ian Botham vs Shaun Pollock

[Bolo.]

Sure but I would argue in terms of match impact Botham's bowling and batting collectively outweigh Pollocks since he had so many soft runs frankly.

Whats your do you mean by soft runs?

He is incredibly consistent in his averages against different countries. Weirdly so. Everyone else that springs to mind with a comparable number of opponents pounded on some teams and/or had some bogey teams.

At least fairly spicy conditions at home throughout his career. He played more in the 2000s than the 90s, but flat decks make up a distinct minority of his career considering home. And while the easy era still counts against him away, his away record is really good even accounting for the proportion of it he played in. He averages several more runs away than the Botham/Miller/Imran types who I dont think I've ever seen anyone seriously compare him to. They are all lower 30s away average. He's upper 30s+ in 7 countries. If he capitalised on soft runs in the flat deck era away, he did so well. There are a bunch of bats averaging close to 50 career who only average a few more than him away.

 

[subshakerz]

Whats your do you mean by soft runs?

He is incredibly consistent in his averages against different countries. Weirdly so. Everyone else that springs to mind with a comparable number of opponents pounded on some teams and/or had some bogey teams.

At least fairly spicy conditions at home throughout his career. He played more in the 2000s than the 90s, but flat decks make up a distinct minority of his career considering home. And while the easy era still counts against him away, his away record is really good even accounting for the proportion of it he played in. He averages several more runs away than the Botham/Miller/Imran types who I dont think I've ever seen anyone seriously compare him to. They are all lower 30s away average. He's upper 30s+ in 7 countries. If he capitalised on soft runs in the flat deck era away, he did so well. There are a bunch of bats averaging close to 50 career who only average a few more than him away.

What's your most notable knock you remember from Pollock?

Much of his runs didn't turn the needle when it came to games, scored in situations in matches that were already going to be lost, won or drawn. Also has a low RPI and plenty of NOs. The most flattering average for any AR.

 

[Bolo.]

What's your most notable knock you remember from Pollock?

Much of his runs didn't turn the needle when it came to games, scored in situations in matches that were already going to be lost, won or drawn. Also has a low RPI and plenty of NOs. The most flattering average for any AR.

Is this what you mean by soft runs? I've only ever seen the term used to mean an easy job of scoring runs. And it seemed to be what you were going for from multiple other posts of yours.

 

[akilana]

So obviously Polock's runs in RSA means double then.

he averaged 29.12 so it doesn't count.

 

[akilana]

Is this what you mean by soft runs? I've only ever seen the term used to mean an easy job of scoring runs. And it seemed to be what you were going for from multiple other posts of yours.

runs scored by any south african batsmen are soft runs..

 

[akilana]

This is odd since you voted for Kapil in the Kapil vs Walsh thread.

Pollock isn't as good a bowler as Walsh and Botham is a Kapil level bowler while being a much better bat.

So basically you think Pollocks batting is really that valuable. That's where I think you may be wrong.

Not sure what the case is for Pollock here. He isnt an ATG bowler and his batting is a lot of fluff frankly without key knocks. He shouldn't be ahead of someone with Botham's output.

good one

 

[Coronis]

good one

Yeah look I’m one of Walsh’s bigger fans here but Pollock was definitely better than him as a bowler

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah look I’m one of Walsh’s bigger fans here but Pollock was definitely better than him as a bowler

Definitely is stretching it. They are close and I believe Walsh won the last poll.

 

[Johan]

Yeah look I’m one of Walsh’s bigger fans here but Pollock was definitely better than him as a bowler

is Walsh better than Bedser

 

[PlayerComparisons]

I prefer Walsh’s bowling over Pollock’s

 

[Coronis]

is Walsh better than Bedser

Of course.

 

[Randomfan]

Anyone having these numbers would have been rated very high.

318 wickets - Avg 20
2858 runs - Avg 34.85

That was Pollocks output in his first 78 tests. His worst bowling average was 27 against Aus. The second worst bowling avg was 23 against Eng in this period. Against every other opposition his bowling average was 20 or below.




At the same time, his worst batting avg was 23 against Ind. Against everyone else he averaged 25+ while batting,






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I think too many fans rememeber him for his last 20-30 tests.

Pollock was fantastic in his first 75-80 tests. We all know Botham's first half and second half story. This was Pollock for 3/4th of his career.

 

[subshakerz]

Anyone having these numbers would have been rated very high.

318 wickets - Avg 20
2858 runs - Avg 34.85

That was Pollocks output in his first 78 tests. His worst bowling average was 27 against Aus. The second worst bowling avg was 23 against Eng in this period. Against every other opposition his bowling average was 20 or below.

View attachment 45926


At the same time, his worst batting avg was 23 against Ind. Against everyone else he averaged 25+ while batting,

View attachment 45927




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I think too many fans rememeber him for his last 20-30 tests.

Pollock was fantastic in his first 75-80 tests. We all know Botham's first half and second half story. This was Pollock for 3/4th of his career.

Again Botham's first half is better but yes Pollock was less appreciated. However his batting is being overrated here.

 

[shortpitched713]

Again Botham's first half is better but yes Pollock was less appreciated. However his batting is being overrated here.

Underutilized =/ Overrated

 

[subshakerz]

Underutilized =/ Overrated

Watched his entire career and I don't think his batting was better than Ashwin or Hadlee.

 

[Bolo.]

Watched his entire career and I don't think his batting was better than Ashwin or Hadlee.

I didnt see Hadlee. Saw Ashwin and also also got that impression, was obviously wrong. Ashwin failed way too often. There is a litany of stats that show this. Substance > style, and results are > percieved potential.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah Ashwin had a pretty good batting peak where he batted regularly at 6 ahead of Jadeja and Saha, but overall his batting is just fine. Not necessarily better than his average or anything.

 

[subshakerz]

I didnt see Hadlee. Saw Ashwin and also also got that impression, was obviously wrong. Ashwin failed way too often. There is a litany of stats that show this. Substance > style, and results are > percieved potential.

Pollock has an RPI of 24, Ashwin 23. Ashwin has six tons to Pollocks two despite them both being regular no.8s.

The only difference between them is Pollock has a crazy number of NOs, something like 1/4th of his innings. Which is a lower order outlier effect which even Imran has to a lesser extent has which is why we bump Imran down 2-3 points in practical batting average.

Pollock is a bit better but clearly to me is in the same class as Ashwin/Hadlee. We shouldn't take his 32 average seriously at all.